Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Big plume of smoke.
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
pburkeame
Samba Member


Joined: October 29, 2018
Posts: 42
Location: British Columbia
pburkeame is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:03 pm    Post subject: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

I’m in the process of getting a 1987 Vanagon on the road and it’s been an ordeal. It’s been a year and a half project so far. The latest of a long list of problems is a huge plume of smoke which is emitted from the exhaust on occasion. When I say big, I mean big. So big in fact that a lady ran on to someone’s lawn when I passed by to get away from the smoke. It was kind of funny actually. I can’t say what kind of smoke it is. I think it’s oil smoke and not coolant. One thing I did notice is that it seems to only happen when I turn left. It does not seem to happen when I turn right. Any ideas?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DanHoug
Samba Member


Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4715
Location: Bemidji, MN
DanHoug is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

3 things cause INTERMITTENT big plumes of smoke...

- oil. possible diluted, when was your last oil change? high oil levels will also do this.

- coolant. when you see the plume, stop, and physically run into it. does it smell sweet? if so, coolant. fire ring gasket issues.

- brake fluid. great clouds of white smoke! the path would be a master cylinder leaking into the brake booster then getting sucked via the vacuum line into the intake manifold. used to pour brake fluid into the carb intake of our rototiller as kid just to make the smoke clouds. great fun.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
RoryGirl
Samba Member


Joined: October 14, 2016
Posts: 768
Location: WestWorld Nanaimo BC
RoryGirl is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

Power steering leaking onto the exhaust?
_________________
1991 Double door pop top conversion
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jlrftype7
Samba Member


Joined: July 24, 2018
Posts: 3549
Location: Chicago
jlrftype7 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

Keep the oil level between the 2 marks on your Dipstick.
Filling the engine full to the top mark can cause oil burning that you don’t see with a slightly lower oil level.
Really check the Breather Tower/ Crankcase breather, they go bad internally.
New ones are available and you’ll need a new o-ring that seals the bottom of the tower to the engine to go with it.
_________________
'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
E1
Samba Member


Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 6374
Location: Westfalia, Earth
E1 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

^^^ This is exactly what I was going to say ^^^

We had an oil breather (tower) go bad once. In our case though, it would build up crankcase pressure on long downhills then WHAM, a UGE plume of oil smoke would bellow out like a mushroom cloud (blue in color, always) ((if only oil)).

It happened maybe four times before replacement (a used one). I do know the oil was overfilled a little one particular time when I thought the dipstick marks were a quart apart. I believe it's more like a pint.

I don't quite understand the process but the van almost stalled after this -- though during that time period the spark plugs would load up with fuel on long downhills anyway (possible vacuum leak).


Edit: Thanks for the reference to "new towers available," Jlr -- I thought they were long NLA.

Here's a link for those interested:
https://www.vancafe.com/Vanagon-Breather-System-s/2915.htm

And, Hello Vashon! 😎
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."

— Colin Chapman


Last edited by E1 on Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Vashon
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2012
Posts: 200
Location: Vashon Island
Vashon is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

blue smoke?white smoke? blue smoke not good. white smoke, maybe the catalytic converter . Had mine go out in grand style. I looked like mad max in a crop duster.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
E1
Samba Member


Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 6374
Location: Westfalia, Earth
E1 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

Vashon wrote:
blue smoke?white smoke? blue smoke not good. white smoke, maybe the catalytic converter . Had mine go out in grand style. I looked like mad max in a crop duster.

Almost unbelievably, I found actual footage of your catalytic breakdown:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge0rWxGedok
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."

— Colin Chapman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Vashon
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2012
Posts: 200
Location: Vashon Island
Vashon is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

Yaa !that be me in the vanagoplane . except the crash part . That was a stunt double.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50255

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

A valve guide that is loose in the head will cause white smoke for some reason and it will be worse when turning one direction verses the other.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
pburkeame
Samba Member


Joined: October 29, 2018
Posts: 42
Location: British Columbia
pburkeame is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

Ok, when running with low oil, it will run with no oil plume. I topped up the oil and it started smoking out the exhaust to beat heck. I pulled the #1 and #2 plugs and the #2 plug was dry and #2 was wet with oil. It all makes sense now. When I turned to the left the oil would slosh over to right side of the engine. My question is in this case what would be the most likely entry point for so muck oil? The valves or the piston rings? Thanks in advance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jimf909 Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7402
Location: WA/ID
jimf909 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

pburkeame wrote:
Ok, when running with low oil, it will run with no oil plume. I topped up the oil and it started smoking out the exhaust to beat heck. I pulled the #1 and #2 plugs and the #2 plug was dry and #2 was wet with oil. It all makes sense now. When I turned to the left the oil would slosh over to right side of the engine. My question is in this case what would be the most likely entry point for so muck oil? The valves or the piston rings? Thanks in advance.


Oil will enter the combustion chamber via valve guides, esp. on deceleration (at least on carb motor, carb closes, the piston sucks whereever it can, loose valve guides allow oil through to burn in the combustion chamberj.

Oil sloshing in the sump and during turns leaking through the rings is another possibility.

Your motor needs a leak-down test.

Regardless, boxer motors tend to use all the topped-up oil until they find equilibrium, i.e. they'll tell you how full they prefer to be, it's usually no more than halfway between the fill marks.
_________________
- Jim

Abscate wrote:
Do not get killed, do not kill others.


Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.

Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Ahwahnee
Samba Member


Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 9776
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
Ahwahnee is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

jimf909 wrote:
...they'll tell you how full they prefer to be, it's usually no more than halfway between the fill marks.


My dipstick...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The arrows point to the factory marks but there is a third notch which I added... slightly below midway. I never fill above that mark.

This may mean that I have to check the oil more often but really should be doing that anyway (e.g. every day on a long trip).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
pburkeame
Samba Member


Joined: October 29, 2018
Posts: 42
Location: British Columbia
pburkeame is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

I’ll drain and refill to the lower mark for now.

I did a compression check and it was 95 psi for 1 and 2 with a cold engine. I’m kinda ruling out the piston rings. My question now is how does oil lubricate the valves? Does oil splash around in the valve cover or through the rockers? Thanks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50255

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

pburkeame wrote:
I’ll drain and refill to the lower mark for now.

I did a compression check and it was 95 psi for 1 and 2 with a cold engine. I’m kinda ruling out the piston rings. My question now is how does oil lubricate the valves? Does oil splash around in the valve cover or through the rockers? Thanks.


Oil comes up through the pushrods from the lifters and then moves through small grooves and drillings in the rockers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
pburkeame
Samba Member


Joined: October 29, 2018
Posts: 42
Location: British Columbia
pburkeame is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

Doing further troubleshooting, I pulled the intake pipe from the #1 and #2 and I noticed a brass coloured tube around the intake valve stem that was loose. I think this may have some bearing on the excess exhaust smoking. I also noticed some oil around the spark plug. Any input would be appreciated, thanks.
_________________
1987 Vanagon Syncro, Manual
1987 Vanagon 2WD, Automatic
1986 DOKA Syncro, Manual
1980 Westphalia, 2WD, Manual (Under Construction)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
borninabus
Samba R&D Dept.


Joined: May 18, 2006
Posts: 4532
Location: Arizona Highways
borninabus is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

that loose "brass tube" is a valve guide and it is allowing oil from the rocker box to get sucked into the combustion process.
continuing to drive it could cause severe damage if the valve comes loose!!

time to pull the head(s) Sad
_________________
71 Ghia A/S - 88 Van A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
tencentlife
Samba Member


Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10067
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
tencentlife is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:40 am    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

Yup, intake valve guide has come loose. Good detective work on the OP's part. Do not operate the engine any more. Heads have to come off with a pretty strong chance that head at least will not be worth trying to rebuild. Since the factors that lead to this damage are the same across the engine (low detergent fuel plus periods of non-use are the main reasons these engines are so prone to intake valve sticking), you should suspect the same for both heads.
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/

Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
pburkeame
Samba Member


Joined: October 29, 2018
Posts: 42
Location: British Columbia
pburkeame is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

It looks like Wildthings was right on the money. I pulled the #1 and #2 head and removed both intake valves as the #1 guide was totally dislodged and #2 was backed out a ways. I removed both valve guides and reinstalled them. I eyeballed how far in they should go by the staining on the guides. I put the head back on using a seal kit from Concept 1 and crossed my fingers. I started the engine and she ran fine for what seemed like longer than it did before before smoking, but it did smoke still. I let it run for awhile and shut it down. I honestly felt defeated. Snooping around I heard what sounded like sizzling coming from the tail pipe. I concluded that excess oil from before had accumulated in the muffler and was burning off as the exhaust system heated up. So, I started it back up and let it cook away. I think it’s getting better now. Over the next few days I’ll let it run for awhile. I will also monitor the position of the guides from the rocker area.

The reason I don’t get new heads is because the van is not in my name just yet. I bought it off a salvage place that was not the legal owner and I have to get it inspected before I can get it transferred to my name. I don’t want to sink a bunch of money into it until I’m the legal owner. That and there is a DOKA I want to buy right now. When I am the legal owner, the cascade of money will start.
_________________
1987 Vanagon Syncro, Manual
1987 Vanagon 2WD, Automatic
1986 DOKA Syncro, Manual
1980 Westphalia, 2WD, Manual (Under Construction)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Abscate Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22568
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
Abscate is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 3:10 am    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

Those valve guides are shrunk fit into the head, did you use new ones or just put the old ones back in?
_________________
.ssS!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
pburkeame
Samba Member


Joined: October 29, 2018
Posts: 42
Location: British Columbia
pburkeame is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. Reply with quote

No, they were the same guides. Once the van is in my name I’ll start sinking some money into it. I just wanted to see if that fixed the excessive smoking and it did. It’s almost like fresh mountain air coming out now.
_________________
1987 Vanagon Syncro, Manual
1987 Vanagon 2WD, Automatic
1986 DOKA Syncro, Manual
1980 Westphalia, 2WD, Manual (Under Construction)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.