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liquidrush Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2018 Posts: 582 Location: MO
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Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:41 am Post subject: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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Who were the first guys who cut a bug apart and thought...hey, a tube frame instead of the body would be pretty cool. I've always wondered that. |
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jimmyhoffa Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2014 Posts: 1047 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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As for the "very first" I don't know, but our man Bruce was a big part of making it big and getting some good numbers out there to show that VW's were going to be a hot contender for years to come. In usual big company fashion, VWoA initially said "no, you can't have money, and if you talk about our engines racing any more we'll sue you" Now they say "Look back at all this desert racing history we created! Woooo!" (now, you know, that all the hard work was done by the pioneers, and they surely profited heavily from the general publicity.)
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2017/10/09/bugs-in-baja-volkswagen-marks-50-years-of-desert-racing/ _________________ 1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous. |
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rayjay Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2008 Posts: 1501 Location: Buford GA
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Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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Tiny Thompson owned a fab shop and created the Burro and Les Choat ran a VW junkyard that supplied Thompson all the VW bits and pieces. According to a magazine article Choat did his first VW based buggy in early 1960. I don't know when the first Burro was made. |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12815 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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Dustymojave. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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sporkwerks Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2018 Posts: 16
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Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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I just saw this the other day.
Link
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jsturtlebuggy Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005 Posts: 4496 Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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Said to have to say that Gil George (Funco Motorsports) passed away on October 23th this year from what I understand was a auto accident. _________________ Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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Mal evolent Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2009 Posts: 2912 Location: San Antonio, Nuevo Mexico
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Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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Hitler and Ferdinand Porsche.
Hitler told Porsche, for public consumption, to build a car for 2 adults and three small children. Hitler told Porsche privately to design an off road capable car for three fully equipped soldiers
Der Kubelwagen unt der Schwimmwagen are examples of that.
it was designed for rough roads from day one. _________________ 73 Beetle Baja, Ghia front brakes, Type 3 rear brakes, 2220 ( 94 X 80 ), Weber Progressive, Bosch SVDA, '97 Mustang seats
Baja Bugs for Volkswagen Virgins: Index |
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jsturtlebuggy Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005 Posts: 4496 Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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The Wampusskitty was the first true tubular chassis built for off road racing.
There was approximately 30 chassis that were built by Funco.
Even Mickey Thompson drove one in the early days. Also Malcolm Smith drove one in the 1968 Baja 1,000 race.
This one is mine. It had been restored by Bill Lott (RIP) of Fibercraft before I bought it.
_________________ Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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oldschool5er Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2007 Posts: 804 Location: Ohio
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Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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If you are talking just tube frame rail buggys versus pan cars with roll cages then I would refer to the ORMHOF website on who those pioneers are. When it comes to tube Rail Buggies the Legends are Gil George of FUNCO and Lynn Chenowth. I can think of a dozen early 60’s guys that had huge influence on our off road history. ORMHOF is just part of it and all of the pioneers have not got inducted yet into the museum. _________________ HRE in Westerville,Ohio
Full machine shop with all types of CNC. Rapid prototyping available, CNC Plasma cutting, 3D printing and Laser engraving. |
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:40 am Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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A number of elder offroad guys told me many decades ago that the father of offroad VWs (not counting Kubelwagens and Schwimmwagens was Scott McKenzie, founder of McKenzie's Offroad supply house. That business evolved from Scott's partnership in SandMaster offroad. But Scott was building VW Bug-based offroad cars in the 1950s.
I got some chuckles from that post above identifying ME as Pioneer. But, my own 1st ride in an offroad car was in Elmer Waring's personal Burro in 1965 in the desert around Willow Springs Raceway. Ernie worked with Les and Tiny to build Burros in that era. He was later the Chief of Tech for NORRA for the Baja races, and for SCIDA Sprint Bug and Buggy races at places like Ascot Raceway. Also General Manager of San Fernando Buggy, makers of Glitterbug fiberglass buggies and Hi Jumper tube frame buggies.
Joe Vittone and his EMPI of Riverside, CA started producing Sportsters in 1960, about the same time as Burro production started. San Fernando Auto Body (later known as San Fernando Buggy) started building their own VW pan and steel tube buggy in the early 60s shortly after the EMPI and Burro started. In the early 60s, there were guys in my neighborhood (a few blocks from San Fernando Auto Body) that had Baja Bugs with bigger rear tires, and cut bodies.
I feel the Burro was the 1st production tube frame buggy. But I'm sure there were quite a few home built buggies before that. I credit Gil George with creating the 1st tube frame VW based buggy of the general truss-side design that is still produced by companies like Acme/Berrien.
I've been around this stuff a VERY long time. Like some others on here, Dennis Hale, jsturtlebuggy. But I'm a generation young to have been a true pioneer in VW offroading. I turned 5 years old in 1960 when others were producing buggies. _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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jsturtlebuggy Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005 Posts: 4496 Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:40 am Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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I heard from a reliable source (he owns 3 Burros) that if you showed up at Tiny's shop with a tape measure, Tiny would kick you out of his shop. Burros do not always have the same wheel base side to side.
Tiny used a lot of 1in square tubing to build the chassis and plywood for the floor. _________________ Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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liquidrush Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2018 Posts: 582 Location: MO
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Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:07 am Post subject: Thanks for all of the great info! |
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Some great reading in there. Thanks! |
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
I heard from a reliable source (he owns 3 Burros) that if you showed up at Tiny's shop with a tape measure, Tiny would kick you out of his shop. Burros do not always have the same wheel base side to side.
Tiny used a lot of 1in square tubing to build the chassis and plywood for the floor. |
I was at Les Choate's Les' Auto Salvage in Compton back in the early 70s getting a pair of wide rim wheels for my Baja. Les' guys made them. 7" rims made for Chevy Rally wheels on VW centers. Anyway, the conversation got around to Burro buggies. One of the comments related to Tiny not liking tape measures. So there's some confirmation for ya. _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Wulfthang Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2018 Posts: 715 Location: Tucson
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Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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Well, it's not a VW but I'll bet we had the first BMW rail. Back in 1971, I was going to school in Germany and living in a small village named Haegelberg. My best friend..Wolfgang aka Wolfy.... and I bought a car from a local farmer for about 20 Marks..about $5. It was a BMW Isetta convertible from the late 50's. We got it running and drove it all over the place. We were 14 years old and having a blast racing around on the old farm roads and trails.
When we were in school, we parked it at his Dad's sawmill lumber mill there in the village. He yelled at us regularly for leaving it in the way. He'd have to use the fork lift to move it. One day, Wolfy called me and told me to get to his house right away. There's been a disaster! When I got there, I discovered our car was smashed! His Dad was moving it to the top of the garage with the fork life and accidentally dropped it over the top of the garage. It was smashed beyond repair! sob! Sorry for the size of the photo's and the wasted white space. Just scroll down.
We looked at the wreck for days before we had a brilliant idea. We removed the body and welded water pipes in place to form a cage in case we wrecked it. (We wrecked about once a week) We drove that all over even crazier than before. It was lot's faster too!
I wish I knew then what I know now! I would have packed it up and shipped it back to the States along with the DKW WWII German Army Messenger motorcycle that we got running and rode all over the place too. I bet they still talk about the two crazy idiots racing each other down farm roads with a DKW motorcycle and a BMW dune buggy rail. |
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Big Al Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2014 Posts: 184 Location: Tucson, AZ
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Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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The Thomas Crown Affair did a lot for dune buggies. Friend of mine had a tube frame buggy in the late 60's. He decided he wanted to build one and bought a giant tig welder. Then he taught himself how to weld with it. It wasn't like a rail now with all the bent tubing but it worked.
Al |
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BL3Manx Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006 Posts: 6767 Location: Northern California
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Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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dustymojave wrote: |
Joe Vittone and his EMPI of Riverside, CA started producing Sportsters in 1960, about the same time as Burro production started. |
I believe the Burro pre-dated the Sportster by about three years
The earliest magazine pictures, articles and ads I can find for the Sportster and also the copyright of the plans they sold are all 1963.
This 1964 Hot Rod article refers to it as the "new Sportster".
Before Hilder Thompson built the Burro Buggy he was building Burro Trail bikes, similar to one called the Pack Jack which had a Goodyear Terra-Tire on back. Hilder made his bike from square tube like the buggy
Ron Luce, an early Orange County Burro Club member said he recalls that Thompson constructed a buggy in late 1960 or early 1961.
The first issue of DUNE BUGGIES & HOT VWs magazine, which was published in 1967, said, “Thompson has been building and selling Burros for over five
years.”
The Summer ‘70 issue of DUNE BUGGY and FUN CARS, published by CARS magazine, said, “Thompson began building Burro buggies in 1960, following
an initial venture into the off-road recreation vehicle field with a fat tired trail bike.”
The Burro company’s 1971 brochure stated, “Proven in the hands of owners for over 10 years.”
Last edited by BL3Manx on Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BL3Manx Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006 Posts: 6767 Location: Northern California
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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liquidrush wrote: |
Who were the first guys who cut a bug apart and thought...hey, a tube frame instead of the body would be pretty cool. I've always wondered that. |
Scott McKenzie and the Chimp, 1959
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jeromevw312 Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2006 Posts: 236 Location: belmar, nj
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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Gary Emory of “Parts Obsolete” fame created the first baja bug. He couldn’t afford a Meyers Manx when they first came out, so he cut up the stock fenders on an old Oval window bug. They were all reworked with lead in proper 60’s hot rod style.
His son is Rod Emory, is the creator of the “outlaw” look 356 Porsche.
“Number 1” as they call it was sitting in the back of the junkyard on there compound in Oregon back around 2003ish when I was there for the 356 campout. Snapped a couple pics of it and a few of us sitting in it.
It was also featured in a VW add back in the day “look what they are doing to our cars” or something like that. In the add it had flames photoshopped in, or whatever they called it back then, lol.
I will hit my buddy up see if he can post some pics. I know he has one of us sitting in it and an original add hanging on his wall. |
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BL3Manx Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006 Posts: 6767 Location: Northern California
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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Wulfthang Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2018 Posts: 715 Location: Tucson
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: Out of curiosity, who were the pioneers of the off road VW? |
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Seeing the Chimp with snow chains on the rear brought back memories. Mid 70's, I had a box stock VW Bug that I drove all over on the trails in North Florida. When we hit swampy areas, we'd stop and put the snow chains on the rear. It worked very well, lots better than just street tires but I had to go slow. One day, we came around a turn and there's a huge jacked up 4 x 4 sitting there with a few guys standing around it. They're all staring back down the trail that we just came in on. I asked what they were looking at and they answered that they had heard a tank along the trail coming but it stopped! We all started laughing and pointed at the snow chains on my Bug. It came to be know as the Swamp Panzer from that day on. |
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