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67 Sunroof Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2014 Posts: 1836 Location: Salisbury, MD
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Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:17 pm Post subject: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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Tomorrow I plan on installing rod bearings and installing them on the crank.
I purchased green plastigauge and want to check the clearances.
If the rods are new and call for, say, 28ft lbs of torque what’s the method I use to check the clearance?
New rods...
Install bearings in rod
Cut about an inch off of the strip
Lay it length-wise or width-wise on rod bearing?
Install rod and torque to spec using oil or no oil?
Loosen rod and read measurement
IF measurement is within spec
THEN:
Use rod bolt lube that is provided in package and torque back to spec again?
When does rod stretch come into play? Before or after pre-install?
I’m a bit confused.
Is it the same for the main bearings as well?
Thank you for any help! |
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jeffrey8164 Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 3804 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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You pretty much have it.
No oil. Lay across. Torque.
Lube after. Check stretch after torque to make sure you’re within spec.
You can plastigauge the center main but the other ones you’ll either need fancy measuring tools or a good set of feeler gauges.
I just assembled my 2276 with all new parts. Scat crank, BugPack rods, Web cam, Silverline bearings.
Rods, mains and cam were all on point, but of course the cam bearing thrust surfaces needed attention. _________________ Volkswagen!
Turning owners into mechanics since 1938.
“Let he that is without oil throw the first rod”
(Compression 8.7:1) |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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From the "How To Hot Rod Volkswagen Engines" book, page 123:
"As you assemble the rods to the crankshaft, use a piece of Plastigage for a trial assembly of each rod so that you can check how close you are to the desired clearance of 0.0025 inch. Disregard early VW manual torque recommendations of 32-36 lbs. ft. because these values will stretch the bolts and could cause failures. Use 22 lbs. ft. torque with Loctite on the threads during your final assembly of the rods to the crank. Rods with a forging mark on the shank must be positioned so that the marks will be up when the engine is installed. 1200 and 1300 rods with bolts only should be equipped with new bolts at every rebuild and rods with both nuts and bolts should have the nuts replaced at rebuild time. Lubricate the bearings as you install them after the clearance check." |
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rayjay Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2008 Posts: 1501 Location: Buford GA
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Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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When using Plastigauge you must make sure that there is no rotation of the part. This will smear the Plastigauge giving a false reading. |
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mcmscott Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010 Posts: 4848 Location: sanger ca
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Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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Basically, if you try to use plastigauge on an air cooled engine you are an idiot,,,,,,. It does not work on an air cooled engine. Never has,, never will. _________________ There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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67 Sunroof Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2014 Posts: 1836 Location: Salisbury, MD
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Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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So I’m an idiot. Thanks for your kind words.
Actually I guess we all start out as idiots so you’ve got a point there.
I have the “how to hot rod a vw engine” book. Dated but still full of useful information. I read through the samba search engine that it was next to impossible to check the rods without moving them. Crank I can see but the rods are another story.
These are cb race rods and have directions with them to follow. I just wasn’t sure about the first torquing, then checking the plastigauge and then the second torquing being an issue with rod stretch. Some use red loctite and some do not. Ugh-decisions decisions. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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I just installed a set of CB H-beam rods and the instructions are to apply a special and supplied grease to the rods, Then torque them to 10/15/20/29 ft-lbs. They use real ARP 2000 12 point bolts tangs down. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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txoval Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004 Posts: 3540 Location: The Woodlands, TX
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Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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Sorry for off topic. Glenn my CB Uni-tech rods with “regular” bolts follow that same torque sequence.
My scat rods with ARP2000 12-pt bolts required 50 ft/lbs. It may be worth checking with CB to confirm the torque value.
Glenn wrote: |
I just installed a set of CB H-beam rods and the instructions are to apply a special and supplied grease to the rods, Then torque them to 10/15/20/29 ft-lbs. They use real ARP 2000 12 point bolts tangs down. |
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txoval Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004 Posts: 3540 Location: The Woodlands, TX
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Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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The reason for the comment is you cannot hold VW rods still to accurately use plasti-gauge.
This is easy in a V8 engine where the rods/pistons are held still in the bore
67 Sunroof wrote: |
So I’m an idiot. Thanks for your kind words.
Actually I guess we all start out as idiots so you’ve got a point there.
I have the “how to hot rod a vw engine” book. Dated but still full of useful information. I read through the samba search engine that it was next to impossible to check the rods without moving them. Crank I can see but the rods are another story.
These are cb race rods and have directions with them to follow. I just wasn’t sure about the first torquing, then checking the plastigauge and then the second torquing being an issue with rod stretch. Some use red loctite and some do not. Ugh-decisions decisions. |
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vince1 Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2003 Posts: 823 Location: Burgundy, France
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FreeBug Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012 Posts: 4278 Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:23 am Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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I've done it, before I had the right tools. I would smear just the lightest coat of wd-40 on ONE side. Even if you don't turn the engine over, if both sides are too clean, the plastigauge sticks to both sides, and gets torn as you separate for the reading.
If you want to immobilize rods, why not try threading a piston pin between two rods on adjourning throws? Neither would be able to turn, if you do them one at a time.
When you have nothing else, plastigauge can do quite a lot. And better than nothing, for sure. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:46 am Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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txoval wrote: |
Sorry for off topic. Glenn my CB Uni-tech rods with “regular” bolts follow that same torque sequence.
My scat rods with ARP2000 12-pt bolts required 50 ft/lbs. It may be worth checking with CB to confirm the torque value.
Glenn wrote: |
I just installed a set of CB H-beam rods and the instructions are to apply a special and supplied grease to the rods, Then torque them to 10/15/20/29 ft-lbs. They use real ARP 2000 12 point bolts tangs down. |
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The torque sequence is print on a large label on the outside of the box... you can't miss it. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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txoval Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004 Posts: 3540 Location: The Woodlands, TX
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Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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Ok, just remembered that and wanted to give a heads up. But as posted above the Scat bolts are 3/8 vs 5/16. |
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67 Sunroof Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2014 Posts: 1836 Location: Salisbury, MD
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Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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Ok I think it was a success.
ARP recommends using the “lube” that comes with the bolts and screw them in/out 4-5 times to get the lube into the threads for proper torque. 15, 20, 25, and finally 29ft/lbs-I didn’t use any thread locker-CB instructions didn’t mention it!?
All rods swing freely-not too loose and not too tight.
Here’s the picture below. I’m quite sure the gangs and rods are facing the correct way but need reassurance anyway. Haha
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rrcade Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2010 Posts: 735 Location: WI 1962 Bug 2276
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Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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jeffrey8164 wrote: |
You pretty much have it.
No oil. Lay across. Torque.
Lube after. Check stretch after torque to make sure you’re within spec.
You can plastigauge the center main but the other ones you’ll either need fancy measuring tools or a good set of feeler gauges.
I just assembled my 2276 with all new parts. Scat crank, BugPack rods, Web cam, Silverline bearings.
Rods, mains and cam were all on point, but of course the cam bearing thrust surfaces needed attention. |
I thought silver line bearings were too soft for a performance engine??? _________________ CHEAP - FAST - RELIABLE
You can only pick two of the above. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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It looks like you have it backwards and the tangs are actually down.
The rod closer to the flywheel is #3 and the numbers are on the tang side.
_________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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67 Sunroof Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2014 Posts: 1836 Location: Salisbury, MD
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Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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I’ll check tonight when I get home from work.
I read that with h beams the orientation doesn’t really matter but people still follow the philosophy like installing the oe rods.
I have all number facing the correct direction and kept them together in matched sets.
I appreciate you checking it out for me. |
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kangaboy Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2010 Posts: 1062 Location: St. Louis, Mo
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Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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So did you use plasigauge like an "idiot"? Or did you just go for it? _________________ -74 Standard - "CaliBug" 2084T, MS3X w/FI and Crank Fire
-76 Westy - "Gandalf"
-18 GTI SE
skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
that fucking thing looks like it drove through a J.C. Whitney catalogue and hit everything on the way out |
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Floating VW Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015 Posts: 1596 Location: The South Zone
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Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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Ha! I knew as soon as I read the title to this thread that someone was going to get all bent out of shape!
I've used it, with much success, for years before I got the "right" tools. Perhaps it's not the most accurate way to do it, but I gotta say I didn't find it that difficult to use, and I'd use it again in a pinch. Perhaps that's what was meant by the "idiot" comment- plastigauge is so easy to use, even an idiot can do it.
It's kinda funny, but I've got a whole list of things that I am used to doing and/or have been doing for years, but according to the Samba are actually impossible! Plastigauge is one of them.
Good luck on your engine build, man! _________________ "It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works." |
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65calvw Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2012 Posts: 19 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Plastigauge, torque specs, mock-up questions |
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How does Plastigauge know it's being used in a Volkswagen Type 1? Or a Ford or a snowblower? |
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