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jlrftype7
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018
Posts: 3582
Location: Chicago
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 Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Insulation to replace the stock insulation? |
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| DuncanS wrote: |
| Slider latch and lock system were protected before foaming of course. We were having our basement done and I protected all non foam areas with poly taped in first. It took him less than 15 minutes for the spraying and <$100. Grinding the surfaces flat was a full hazmat setup and took about an hour. Sound deadening has been OK, but for a real acoustical treatment, MulitMan's system is the way to go. Used to install this type of treatment in boats. It's very effective and fairly expensive. As an only part-time summer camper and with plenty of winter driving heat, I wouldn't have bothered if the installer weren't already here for the basement. |
So, Closed Cell Spray Foam was used?
_________________
'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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Multiman mv
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2017
Posts: 987
Location: Martha's Vineyard, Ma
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| Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:07 am Post subject: Re: Insulation to replace the stock insulation? |
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| nemobuscaptain wrote: |
Why why why do people spend fortunes trying to "insulate" a metal box that has the top missing, a piece of fiberglass in its place, glass covering most of the top half, numerous doors, and vents in the front and back?
This borders on insanity. You are losing your heat out the gaps, vents and thru the glass.
And most of the goofy stuff people do are CAUSING rust.
Id bet a months pay you couldnt measure the difference in a van with or without insulation behind the frig. |
This is what I assumed before embarking on an insulation project on my van. I decided to do it for a few reasons. When running an eberspacher heater inside my van, I observed condensation forming on the inside of the exterior panels due to the temperature difference from the inside of the van compared to the outside. Applying layers of dynamat and dynaliner completely prevented moisture and condensation from forming. Heat retention has been greatly improved and the insides of my panels are bone dry. If condensation did form, the panels are sealed with the dynamat and the bottom six inches are sealed with wax just in case. The insulation has made a major difference in sound control as well. I used to listen to my radio on a much higher volume level. After insulation my volume is set much lower. Before insulating, I couldn’t for the life of me have a conversation with my kids sitting in the rear facing seats while traveling on the highway. After insulating, I can talk with my kids at a normal level and understand every word. So if anyone wants to know if the efforts are worth it, absolutely they are. You have to insulate every square inch and use a combination of materials because what works for sound insulation may not work for heat. If using auxiliary heat, like an espar or propex, the stock insulation is not enough to prevent condensation from forming on the inside of the panels. If you can observe condensation forming on the inside of the windows, it can certainly form on the insides of the body panels.
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1991 multivan, FAS 1.9 tdi, Peloquin limited slip
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0 |
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Bulli Klinik
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005
Posts: 2079
Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Insulation to replace the stock insulation? |
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I'm going to have to agree with Nemo on this. I think that your fighting a losing battle trying get a Bus insulated to the degree a home is insulated. The roof lets out a lot of heat but the main culprit is the single pane windows which give massive heat loss.
If you're building a Bus for heavy duty winter camping you may want to start with a Panel. You could theoretically build a very efficient thermal envelope and keep a good amount of heat in the Van.
The spray in foam is a neat idea though I don't think it's suited for an automotive environment. Heat and vibration may break it down into dust.
I think you'll make substantial gains in addressing noise issues by insulating or better yet using a spray in sound deadener.
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I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs |
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82westyrabbit
Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2015
Posts: 969
Location: Ma
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| Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Insulation to replace the stock insulation? |
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| Hi jlrftype7. I am happy with what I have done. My van spent a week camping without me at a music festival in the rain and It didn’t have condensation issues but I am still concerned about moisture getting into the insulation. Like I have said several times in this thread if I had it to do again I probably would have gone the hi tech root. I have some access holes so I can check behind the kitchen area to check for moisture without removing everything. I don’t have a camping heater so for me it is about keeping the van at a more constant temperature cooler during the day hotter at night. I certainly would not do the spray foam thing it’s just too permanent for me with no way check what’s going on at a later date. There was a guy here doing lizard skin sound deadening and insulation that sprayed on that I got excited about but you had to do it as one big job instead of small pieces like I did. Sometimes we just have to pick a path. That’s hard when we might not know the consequences for years. John |
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jlrftype7
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018
Posts: 3582
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Insulation to replace the stock insulation? |
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| 82westyrabbit wrote: |
| Hi jlrftype7. I am happy with what I have done. My van spent a week camping without me at a music festival in the rain and It didn’t have condensation issues but I am still concerned about moisture getting into the insulation. Like I have said several times in this thread if I had it to do again I probably would have gone the hi tech root. I have some access holes so I can check behind the kitchen area to check for moisture without removing everything. I don’t have a camping heater so for me it is about keeping the van at a more constant temperature cooler during the day hotter at night. I certainly would not do the spray foam thing it’s just too permanent for me with no way check what’s going on at a later date. There was a guy here doing lizard skin sound deadening and insulation that sprayed on that I got excited about but you had to do it as one big job instead of small pieces like I did. Sometimes we just have to pick a path. That’s hard when we might not know the consequences for years. John |
Thanks for the reply- I guess time will tell for all the Sound Deadening and insulations attempts we've done.
_________________
'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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DeLvxe
Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2019
Posts: 106
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Insulation to replace the stock insulation? |
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I am curious if folks are putting down sound deadener on the floors and to what extent? I recently installed kilmat on all of the doors and will get behind the cabinets when I get back from a trip in a couple of weeks.
I am wondering if it is worth the time/effort/money to install:
- below the carpet in the front
- below the bench seat
- below the hard flooring in the main area
- on the engine cover
How far do most folks go with sound deadening?
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1991 manual camper with EJ25 |
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82westyrabbit
Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2015
Posts: 969
Location: Ma
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Insulation to replace the stock insulation? |
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| I did but I am not sure it’s worth the money and weight. I did it to my mx5 as well. In the mx5 it made a big difference not so much in noises But in the tone. It got rid of the tinny sound. In the van I am not sure it made that big a difference. It certainly helps but I think I could have used a lot less and got the same results. I have pictures in my build thread. John |
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shagginwagon83
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Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 3800
Location: VA/TN
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| Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Insulation to replace the stock insulation? |
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I'm installing a gas/diesel heater in my van that will be pulling air from behind the westy fridge. I hope that it would pull moisture from that area. Any recommended insulation for that area? I did the fridge delete so I can replace it easily.
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Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan |
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IdahoDoug
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Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10251
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Insulation to replace the stock insulation? |
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While I agree there is no chance you'll "insulate it to the level of a house", however there are meaningful gains if you like to get out in the winter to camp a few times a year.
Yes, the windows lose major heat, so spend $40 and make your own with a Home Depot roll of foil bubble insulation. In addition, I have a tintop and I insulated the walls from the B pillar back with fiberglas insulation that has a waterproof layer on the side against the metal and a plastic grid providing airspace against the metal outer wall.
But back to what is possible. I wish I had some way of measuring the impact of these fairly cheap and easy improvements, and anecdotal evidence is not something to rely upon to disassemble the entire interior for a few degrees of comfort. I did mine as it was apart already.
So on a cold night with foil reflective covers over the windows, and just the Big Buddy pilot light (probably the heat output of 3 candles), we remain cozy. I've camped in our non-insulated Syncro tintop without window covers and recall that once the heater was turned off it felt like the interior dropped to ambient in mere minutes. You could just feel the cold seeping into the sleeping bag as the interior sucked heat out of it.
Some insulating steps are worth doing but there is certainly a point of diminishing returns beyond which you are spending a lot for little additional gain. I think the window covers are crazy easy and improve quite a bit for a big bang for the buck. My wife and college age daughter just spent a week sleeping in one of our LandCruisers back in Michigan's Upper Penninsula. I mailed out the window covers I'd made for the Cruiser and that's all they used, but it helped quite a bit.
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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82westyrabbit
Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2015
Posts: 969
Location: Ma
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| Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Insulation to replace the stock insulation? |
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| I agree with Doug. I did all my insulation when my van was already apart. I don’t think I would take apart a together van just to insulate it. I didn’t get as far as making window covers yet. I camped in it a few times last month when the temperature was in the low 30’s and it was cold without the window covers. I am still glad I did the insulation when it was apart. John |
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nemobuscaptain
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 3874
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| Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Insulation to replace the stock insulation? |
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| IdahoDoug wrote: |
however there are meaningful gains if you like to get out in the winter to camp a few times a year.
Yes, the windows lose major heat, so spend $40 and make your own with a Home Depot roll of foil bubble insulation. |
Sure there are meaningful gains and they basically begin and end with the windows. Ive lived, worked outside and camped in the great white north more than I cared to.
In da UP (Michigan) people used heavy curtains with a liner (creates a gap between the liner and the heavy curtain). Mount it high enough to the ceiling and it try to seal it off. Look at those insulated curtains to get the right idea. Im sure it could be adapted to a bus easily enough. Sew em yerself.
Remember the whole purpose of insulation is dead air space. Things w no dead air space (some of the sound stuff) doesnt insulate. (You only need a bit of that to stop resonance btw)
Reflectix works with radiant heat but it also sometimes has small bubbles.
I like reflectix but more for the summer. You could cut and glue a few layers if you wanted. The human body does radiate some heat but those space blanket thingies dont really work unless right against you (and they dont work real well anyway, more of a wind block). No other heat sources in a bus are kicking out radiant heat unless you have a wood stove. 
The aircooled guys use curtains between the front and back to create a smaller area to heat with the warm air that wanders out ofntheir vents up front. Creating a smaller space is a great idea. That is after all what a tent is, a microclimate. It is designed to capture heat and create a smaller space for you to heat. A sleeping bag is an even smaller microclimate.
If you get the area small enough, sleeping bag, even your own body heat can warm the microclimate.
You could do the same with the "bedroom" of your bus, add a thick curtain and make the bedroom smaller.
Ive seen people create foam piece to block off the westy hole.
I like the crate ideas for the floors.
Stuffing stupid stuff in the walls is about the last thing Id do. If I did, it would probably be reflectix and Id cut it short and try not to trap water at the bottom.
Ive watched plenty of vehicles on a thermal scope. Where do you see heat? well engine and exhaust of course, but after that windows and door gaps. Thats where you should soend your efforts. Added bonus, easy to add and remove if you choose.
Dont waste your time w the panels. They are already better insulated than the rest of your bus, assuming the upholstery is still there.
Dont rust your bus.
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IdahoDoug
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Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10251
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: Insulation to replace the stock insulation? |
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Oh, forgot to add the entire space behind all the panels I insulated also has a layer of the reflectex foil bubble material on the inboard surface. This not only should help with radiant heat loss, but it also was then gently pushed against the interior panels and the inner body openings for a nice tight seal most of the way around those openings. With the window coverings in place, a good portion of my interior (including the rear hatch and slider) has reflectix material. You'd have to feel it to believe it. Perhaps some time at a cold camping event we'll do an instrumented test.
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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