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Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage.
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narco
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:50 am    Post subject: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

Hi guys and gals

I've just got my KG out of storage. It's been there for 7 years.

I'm slowly teaching myself about the mechanics through youtube videos and books, but I am only starting. A couple of the many issues that I need to diagnose:

1> I had it delivered on the back of a trailer. They parked on a hill by my place and went to get it off. Once it was unhitched, the hand brake held the car on the hill, but when I used only the foot brake, it was not enough to stop it rolling down the hill, backwards. Obviously this is some sort of issue with the brakes, but where should I start to look, having never worked on brakes before? It is a 69, so it has drums in the back and disks in the front.

2> I got the engine going quite well. I changed the oil, plugs, points, condenser, set the valves, cleaned out the carb. I was quite proud of myself, as I thought it was going quite nicely, until I actually tried to drive it up the little hill into my garage, when I realised that if I pull the clutch out, the engine dies. I thought it was the clutch going, but from what I know, a bad clutch should mean the engine revs without transferring its power to the wheels, but that is not what is happening. It drives a little when I let the clutch out, but not enough to go up a short but somewhat steep driveway, and the engine dies. Any thoughts? I also know little to nothing about clutches.

I didn't do much experimentation with this second problem, as once I got it in the garage (after a run up) I didn't want to take it out again.

thanks Smile
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KGCoupe
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

I'll take a stab at your drivability/"clutch" issue, and would venture a guess that it's actually a brake issue.

Sometimes when the rubber brake lines get old, they can fail internally in such a way that they act as a sort of one way valve which allows the brake fluid to pass forward into the caliper/brake drum pistons but will then block that fluId from flowing back out.
This would obviously leave the brake piston stuck in the extended position and will effectively lock the affected wheel.

If that's happening to you, it could explain why the car is stalling out when you release the clutch and try to move forward.

Of course I'm assuming here that you've remembered to release the parking brake which you had to set to keep the car from rolling backward.
(Something that I'm sure we've all been guilty of overlooking at some time or another. Smile )

Another possibility of why the car is stalling out when the clutch is released is that being somewhat new to all of this vintage VW stuff, you may inadvertently have the car in 3rd gear rather than 1st gear.
Just a thought.
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narco
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply.

I don't think it is the brake explanation, as the car was able to roll with the clutch in.

But it was like I was in third gear. In fact, I thought perhaps I was, and I checked a couple of times that I wasn't in third by trying to re-put it in first, but you've just reminded me that I forgot to do the "into second before putting it in first" trick that I used to have to do when it was my daily driver, so perhaps I was still getting third every time.

It was behaving like it was in third, so perhaps I'll start there. Thanks.

Any idea about why the hand brake was working, but the foot brake wasn't working well? The itself pedal felt like it was working, it didn't bottom out or anything.

Thanks again.
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Era Vulgaris
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

narco wrote:

Any idea about why the hand brake was working, but the foot brake wasn't working well? The itself pedal felt like it was working, it didn't bottom out or anything.



The hand brake is actuated via cables that are completely separate from the hydraulic system that is actuated by the pedal. Just because the handbrake works doesn't mean the pedal will work. It sounds like you need to go through the hydraulic system and see where the faults are. My first bet would be the 4 flex lines. After that the rear wheel cylinders and front calipers, and the master cylinder.
Did you check to make sure the hydraulic system has fluid? Check the reservoir and make sure neither of the hoses from the reservoir to the master cylinder has a leak. 1969 had a dual circuit brake system. It could be that one or both of the circuits has completely leaked out, leaving you with only half or none of the system working.
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narco
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

Thanks a lot, I'll work through that list.

So far I've only been working on getting the engine idling again Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

Jack up the car and have someone push in the brake pedal. See if the wheels can be turned by hand. If they can, the wheel cylinders and/or calipers are seized. I've seen this many times in cars that sit for years.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:07 am    Post subject: Re: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

Thanks
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

Mine had all new brakes then sat for 12 years under cover in my garage.
When I sat in it and put my foot on the brakes the pedal went to the floor and brake fluid started draining out all over the place. Obviously, all the rubber seals in the master cylinder were toast.
In the end I replaced everything as one of the calipers was frozen and both rear wheel cylinders were leaking.

Yes you could be in third when the engine dies but it could be timing or the distributor not advancing.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

So I propped it up on a jack, had my wife press the brakes, and tried turning the rear wheels. And yes, they turned. So it is as above. Now to look into what to do about that.

I only checked the rear ones, which are drum brakes, the front (unchecked) are disks.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

You might find that a quick adjustment of the rear brake shoes will allow the handbrake to work again. Follow the Bentley procedure for that. If your handbrake actually holds the car on a slope you can then begin to troubleshoot hydraulics.

What carb /distributor are you running?

After adjusting valves, points and cleaning the carb you will need to reset mixture and then check timing. How much adjustment was needed on the valves?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

Thanks, although the handbrake is working, it's the foot brake that is not. The pedal doesn't bottom out.

The carb is stock, pict 3 I think, and 009 clone distributor.

I have already adjusted valves, replaced and set points, mixture and timing.

valves didn't require much adjustment, although they were dirty (black).
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

If it were mine, I would have the wife press the pedal again. While she’s pressing, look at the flexible brake lines and see if they puff out. Move them with your hands and see if they are stiff and look for any visible cracks. They should be pliable. If they puff out or are hard as a rock they need replacing. Then, pull the wheels, remove the drums and have her press again but lightly and slowly this time and not to the floor. See if the wheel cylinders push out both shoes on each side. It’ll be a little tricky because if they are free you can easily pop the piston out of the cylinder and fluid will go everywhere necessitating bleeding the brakes. Actually, don’t have her press the pedal at all once the drums are off. Pull the spring clips that hold the shoes on and see if the wheel cylinder pistons can be moved by hand. You should be able to rotate them as well as push/pull them in and out a little. If you can’t then they probably need to be replaced. Put the drums back on and move to the front.(you don’t need to torque them down unless everything seems to be fine. We’re just trying to keep the pistons in their bore)

For the front, unbolt the calipers one at a time and slide them off the rotor. Put a wrench between the pads where the rotor would ride and press the brake pedal. Do the pistons move? If not, it’s time to either rebuild or replace the calipers.

As an aside, before you do any of that, do a mini bleed of the rear wheel cylinders and the front calipers to make sure the master cylinder is pumping the brake fluid to all four wheels.

As I said before, mine sat for 12 years and the master cylinder seals gave way. I also found a frozen caliper. I decided to replace everything just to be sure.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

DOT 3 brake fluid sucks water right out of the air and into your brake system. The nice smooth steel brake cylinder bores rust up after only 2 years or less in humid locations, even if you never drive it one foot after replacing every single brake part. Then you hop into the seat and pump the pedal, and if the pistons can even move, the seals are torn up by the rust. Rust affects rubber brake seals like sand applied in the wrong place would affect your sex life.

We changed to DOT 5 and even with that brake fluid we are getting eight years between needing to take it all apart to clean out rust and replace rubber seals or a cylinder or two on our daily drivers.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:05 am    Post subject: Re: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

Thanks guys. A few things to look at there. And a bit of research required to make sense of it! Smile

It looks like the drums are potentially going to be difficult to remove, with the 36mm axle bolt.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:18 am    Post subject: Re: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

narco wrote:
Thanks guys. A few things to look at there. And a bit of research required to make sense of it! Smile

It looks like the drums are potentially going to be difficult to remove, with the 36mm axle bolt.


Just removed mine yesterday for the first time in my life. This made it simple and easy:

https://www.mooreparts.com/latest-rage-000133-torq...gland-nut/
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

narco wrote:
It looks like the drums are potentially going to be difficult to remove, with the 36mm axle bolt.


That should be a nut that requires a 35 mm socket. Do not try a socket that only has a 1/2" drive, it will shear off too easily.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

Trylon wrote:

Just removed mine yesterday for the first time in my life. This made it simple and easy:

https://www.mooreparts.com/latest-rage-000133-torq...gland-nut/


Ha, I already have one on order Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:44 am    Post subject: Re: Diagnose my issues? Brakes and clutch after being in storage. Reply with quote

narco wrote:
Trylon wrote:

Just removed mine yesterday for the first time in my life. This made it simple and easy:

https://www.mooreparts.com/latest-rage-000133-torq...gland-nut/


Ha, I already have one on order Smile


My only problem was that my lugnuts were too short and I had to get a couple of longer bolts. Then, bob’s your uncle, it was off!
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