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A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread
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asiab3
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:00 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

I found my Wilson book this afternoon, and he does say the bigger difference in rods is the big end journal size. The 1.7/1.8 rods have a 55mm diameter, while the 2.0L rods have a 50mm diameter. Youíll just have to make sure whatever bearings you buy match your rods and crank, but thatís part of the build process anyway. The notch caught me by surprise, but I agree that if you have a low oil pressure issue, you have a much bigger problem than the notches! Smile

See you on the road,
Robbie
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white74westy
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

Couple of quick updates. So about three weeks ago, I managed to get the wood panel in that sits adjacent to the slider. Last I mentioned it, I was concerned that I would have to remove the rear bench, in order to get it in. Fortunately for me, I didn't. I removed the seat belt mount that attaches to the wheel well arch. There was enough flexibility in the board to be able to ever so gently, persuade it into place. I know, craptastic picture, but hey, its the best I could do in a rush:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I think it looks great!

Onto the engine stuff. First and foremost, a slice of humble pie! I really enjoy learning! I love learning about anything that interests me in the moment. I also really enjoy learning from others, and can truly appreciate someone else's mastery of a topic. This is one of those situations. A few weeks ago, I published a picture (see below) in this thread, that showed the measrements of the crank, prior to sending it out to have it polished:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now I was quite proud of my efforts. It is really the first time I have ever really used quality, precision, instruments to properly measure engine parts. I knew there was an art-form involved and appreciate the finesse involved in taking these measurements. However, as you'll note in the image below, the crank came back, and it had amazingly gorwn! Shocked Laughing
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The above measurements were taken by my good friend and neighbor, that has been kind enough to lend me his tools, and even a great deal of his time in using them. He states that I "gorilla-gripped" the measurements. Apparently, there is far more involved in getting truly accurate readings than what I thought! Happily, he measured the crankshaft for and we came up with results you see above. They're pretty darn impressive! So far, I'm very happy with the results of all the work that I had done at the machine shop! The work is very tidy, and well within acceptable tolerances. I can happily recommend the work by Titan Engines, in Ocala, Florida.

Here's a link to their website: https://titanengines.com/brands/Titan-Engines.html

Yeah yeah, I know...American engines etc. Their machinists have been there a long time and know what they're doing. They were diligent and timely. The shop did a good job of communicating with me, whenever I forgot things (like the fan hub assembly Rolling Eyes Laughing ) and were happy to answer questions. Like most good places, they're pretty busy, yet I never felt like they didn't have time to speak with me and answer questions etc. I dealt mostly with John. If you're in the area, check them out.

Alright, with that behind us, it's time to move onto the case(s). Once again, with the assitance of my neighbor, I managed to spend a couple of hours yesterday, taking measurements. I was going to start with the AW case that Adrian had built. I torqued the case halves together, in order to get an idea of what the bores looked like. I dug up the #3 main bearing to help with some of the measurements, after I'd already put the case together. Just for grins, I half-jokingly slid the bearing into the openeing. Amazingly, it slid in with absolutely no resistance! I looked at my neighbor and said, "I don't even want to go any further with this case!" Bear in mind, that I assumed it to be junk, before we ever got started. If you remember from earlier in the thread, this is the case that has the "amazing wonder-ball" thingermabobber stuffed into the oil pressure bypass passage. Ed (my neighbor) says, "What are you going to do with it?" My immediate response was "put a bunch of bullet holes in it, duh!!!" Ed immediately mic's the bearing: 2.7767" OD. Okay, cool, now we have a jumping off point. All the manuals state that a standard case's main bores, #1-#3 have acceptable measurements of 2.7559" - 2.7567". The wear limit, in other words, where the case is deemed no longer accpetable is 2.7570". Therefore, if I add 0.20" (0.50mm) to the diameter of a case that has been cut, the new acceptable measurements would be 2.7759" - 2.7767". The new wear limit would therefore be 2.7770. Again, just trying to wrap my head around all of this, as the bearing easily slid in and out of the hole. Here's an image of the bearing that came out of the #1 bore:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'd seen all I needed to. I didn't want to spend any additional time messing with that case. Time to move onto the spare CB case. The measurements were as follow:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm glad we took the time to measure the case! Yes, the numbers are pretty close. Some of them, well within the accpetable limits. However, many are not. This case will need to be lightly machined. I was planning on sending it out to have it decked. I will now be adding line bored, along with a couple of other odds and ends. I couldn't get great readings for the #4 bore. The measurements for "B" and "D" were okay, however the other two kept giving us varied results that were too wonky to even consider. Since I'm going to have the case machined, I'll have that looked at too.

I think that's it for now. Hopefully, it won't take too long to get the case reworked. Once that's done, it'll be time to put this thing back together! Can't wait!!!

Thanks for checking in!

a.
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white74westy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

Made the decision today to get rid of the Fuel Injection System. I've really been on the fence about the whole thing. At the end of the day, it's simply about trying to be true to my intention all along. I have strived to keep the bus as close to stock as possible. It came with carbs, may as well stay with carbs. Ultimately, I wasn't terribly thrilled about having to add the stand for the air cleaner, or having to cut the hole for the ECU. A part of me feels like maybe I'm making a mistake. However, when the bus was running, it ran pretty well, outside of the low oil pressure issues. Once I spent time familiarizing myself with the DRLA36's, the engine breathed well.

Here's a link to the ad:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2330548

Seem fair?

I spent a little time giving it a quick cleaning. I think it'll make someone very happy, somewhere down the road.
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riverside66
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

white74westy wrote:
I think it'll make someone very happy, somewhere down the road.


Heck yea it'll make someone happy. It would make ME happy!

Too bad the timing is wrong (ie: I'm broke)

Good luck with the sale!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

Iíve got a way to go in getting the feel for measuring accurately. I might as well be wearing oven mitts sometimes. I thought it was just me that had this much trouble measuring, but I guess it takes time and practice to learn.

I watched a student in our autotech program measuring a pile of lash caps he had dumped out of a cylinder head before the teacher could tell him not to. He cranked down on them when he wanted them to be thinner, looser when he needed a thicker one.
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white74westy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

orwell84 wrote:
Iíve got a way to go in getting the feel for measuring accurately. I might as well be wearing oven mitts sometimes. I thought it was just me that had this much trouble measuring, but I guess it takes time and practice to learn.

I watched a student in our autotech program measuring a pile of lash caps he had dumped out of a cylinder head before the teacher could tell him not to. He cranked down on them when he wanted them to be thinner, looser when he needed a thicker one.


Hah! Me too! Laughing Laughing Laughing

As my neighbor says, "gorilla, with the gorilla grip" Rolling Eyes Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:51 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

riverside66 wrote:
white74westy wrote:
I think it'll make someone very happy, somewhere down the road.


Heck yea it'll make someone happy. It would make ME happy!

Too bad the timing is wrong (ie: I'm broke)

Good luck with the sale!


Thanks for checking in. PM sent.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

OK,

Here you're at the place where the real stuff happens..

You already know that the Adrian case has the relief valve destroyed,
And it looks like you have discovered your oil pressure issue?

Could it be that the case was line bored, but the bearings are standard?

I'm a little confused looking at what you wrote up, there.. Wink

Here's the rub;
Bearings are not as good as they once were dimensionally..
The OD and ID numbers can be off a bit from what they are supposed to be.

As you now know from using a mic,
There's some touch involved.. Very Happy

When you go to measure the OD of a soft bearing,
How much you smash the thimble down will give you any number of readings.
Best to have your machinist do these measurements,
After you do, to learn your trends.

The OD of bearings is so hard to actually measure, you're going to have to just start writing down a range and averages.

In the end, you're going to have to abandon calculating crush to a tenth.
it's just impossible,
unless you have access to more than just hand tools.

I was a machinist every day professionally for about five years,
And i still really can't pull an accurate tenth with a mic.
If you have what you think is within a tenth or three,
it likely means you're within a thou, dig?

Chances are your measurements of your crank journals is just measuring your noise.
Crank grinding machines are more accurate then you and your mic, dig?
Especially for round;
Round on a crank machine is round.
Now you know your measuring error! Laughing

Anyways, your measurements -are- going to be good enough to know you got the right size bearings,
And if the line bore is within a thou or so.


On to the case..

Get both of those cases cleaned up so you can work with them.
if your machinist friend can help you, measure the ID of the lifter bores, and compare to OD of the lifters to determine wear.
They tend to bell-mouth towards the face, where the side-loading of the cam comes into play.
See of you can measure out-of-round in the direction of thrust from the cam turning against the spring load..
If you can..
Mostly this is done by feel.
Try both cases and see what they feel like.
Hopefully they feel the same,
or better yet,
Your other case feels tighter in the lifter bores than the Adrian case..


Deck..
This one is the hard part.
Dead nuts easy if you're set up for it on a mill.
Get your machinist to set you up.
Have the mill right, head trammed in , etc.
Pull the long studs from the case halves that stick down too much.
Support the case from the parting line, level, face down on the mill table.
It takes more than just 123 blocks to do this,
But if you pull enough studs.. Maybe not.
A big hollow block eliminates the need to pull studs.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Take the quill full 'up' and lock it in place.
Center the flycutter on the cylinder spigot, and crank the table up at the knee until the cutter touches off.
Zero the knee,
And crank the table up until the deck cleans up all the way around.
Then write down your number.
You just decked your case,
but more importantly you know how many thou it took to clean up.

Edit - don't let the above pic confuse.
This pic is a type 1 getting opened up for big cylinders.
Your type 4 is just getting the flat cylinder seating surface flat again.
Case deck on a type 4 is just a flat plane.


See,
The boxer engine tries to beat itself up.
The cylinders opposite each other try and pound the other side of the motor away.
What happens is the center main bearing gets ovaled out.
It gets wider side-to-side than up-and-down.
This is called a 'spread center main',
And it causes the whole case to widen side-to-side at the center main.
(some call this 'sag' and i don't like that term)
The result is that the deck is 'higher' - further from the case centerline at the center main.
And that's what you see when you do the cleanup deck cut described above.
When you get your number in the deck operation, you see how much the center main of the case itself has moved..

Every used case i have ever decked has taken at least a couple thou to clean up.
More than three or four (.003" - ..004") and you're getting marginal.
Five or six and you toss the case.


Here's another view:
Put in a light.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


See if there's a gap.
(This pic has a bearing - another issue) see if you have this gap with no bearing.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Try it with the six main case bolts finger tight.
Then at say 10 or 20 ft. lbs.
Take pics and report back.
Do it with both cases.
Now you know why i want them clean.
See if you have both cases with no gap at light torque.
Like So:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



The issue I'm showing above is another entirely different issue, and that's center main bearings being wrong at the parting line.
You might have to do some of this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


but that's another story altogether.
Don't let me confuse you.
You are checking for spread center main, and the non-flatness of cylinder deck that results.

if you machinist friend has a good inspection setup at work,
get some blocks, a surface plate, a digital height gauge and all the proper inspection tools and go to town.
A good height gauge will be able to see a couple thou difference across the deck no problem..


So,
There's more,
but i gotta get back to work.
See if your cases have good lifter bores and a flat deck..
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

If you see a gap like this with NO bearing and case-half bolts torqued,
Your case is junk.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Jake used to use super-thin pieces of paper - carbon paper from multi-part forms.
Regular paper is usually a full thou thick or so.
Carbon paper is only a few tenths.
Regular paper is too thick for the test.

You would torque the case halves with the paper pinned between the halves at the parting line, Right next to where the bearing would usually sit.
Then,
See if it pulls out, or tears by being trapped.

If it pulls out, case is junk.

The "Carbon Paper Trick"...
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

Clatter, thanks for your continued input!!!

To begin, I apologize for the confusion. What I was trying to get at in the post above, was the fact that a bearing that indicates that it was designed to go in a case that had been cut 0.02" (0.5mm) and a crank that had been cut 0.01" (0.25mm) was capable of sliding into the case with absolutely zero resistance! The bearing was clearly not sized correctly for the case. It is absolutely no wonder that there were oil pressure issues with the engine. So, yes the case had been line bored, but the bearings were not standard. It would seem that the line bore job was done very poorly. Given the specifications mentioned in all of the manuals that I have, the case was still too far out, after the work had been done. Frankly, I'm amazed that it ran at all, and that the premature wear was limited to what was shown, considering the gaps between the bearings and the case. Nevertheless, as stated earlier, that case is junk and I will no longer give it any further consideration of any sort whatsoever! Time to move on.

I put the flashlight in the case and poked around. There were no gaps between the case halves. Best I could manage for pictures I'm afraid:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I moved the light around, checking each of the mating surfaces. I could not find any areas where there were gaps. I am relieved! However, I'm back to square one, with regard to trying to find someone trusted, and capable of doing the machine work required for a type IV case.

Does anyone know of a reputable shop that handles these cases anymore, and can turn it around fairly quickly? Question Exclamation Question
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:45 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

How do the lifter bores feel?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

Did you make any attempt at measuring the deck?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

If the case doesnít have a spread center main,
And the lifter bores are still good,
Itís a case worth saving.

Otherwise, you just source another.

Hereís a guy who is known to do good work:
[/url] https://rockyjennings.com [/url]

Iíd see if he was up for doing your line bore, deck and galley plugs..
He can also sleeve your lifter bores if you really want to go all out. Wink

Since Jake is relatively close to you,
It might be worth it to see if he would do the machine work as well.
Worst he could do is say no.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:19 am    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
How do the lifter bores feel?

Did you make any attempt at measuring the deck?



Lifter bores are good.

No attempt on the deck, yet.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:28 am    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

Good to be able to keep my hands busy this weekend. I fianlly got around to installing the headbanger cabinet.

I had a little assistance from Mrs. white74westy...shhh, don't tell her I snapped the pic:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Pretty stoked with the way it came out:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It was nerve wracking driling into the ceiling, but thankfully all the measurements were taken correctly and it installed with very little fuss.

I started to mess around with the mud flaps this weekend:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I decided to put it on hold, until I can get the brackets powder coated. I bought the stainless steel brackets from a gentleman in the UK. They are beautifully done. However, once I got them under the bus, the front brackets in particular stood out too much. It made it look "blingy." I prefer the more subdued black over the shiny metal look.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

Sorry to hear Rocky is all booked up..

FWIW,
I always have a spare engine ready.
One to run for now when the other is taking forever to get right.. Wink

Murphy will dictate that there will be no need for another once the spare is done.

In all fairness,
Bearings aren't what they used to be.

Used to be you could just line bore to spec,
And the bearings would be the right OD,
And they would crush into place just like that.

No more.
Now,
OD and ID of bearings is anyone's guess.

What's the ID of the main saddles of the Adrian case?

Might be that the bore is right, but the bearings are the wrong size..

On that note,

Have you measured the ID of the mains in the CB case?

Maybe have your friend do it and you do it and compare the numbers..
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

http://www.brothersvwmachineshop.com/machine.htm

Or there's always these guys..
I know they're not what they used to be,
but,
You might get lucky.

https://fatperformance-rimco.com/
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

Does anyone have any experience with Brothers Machine Shop, specific to the type IV platform?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:33 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:

Or there's always these guys..
I know they're not what they used to be,
but,
You might get lucky.

https://fatperformance-rimco.com/


That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid!!! I don't want to gamble anymore! I don't mind paying someone to do it, if I know that they're going to do what they say they will! I just don't want take any more chances. Done being burned!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

As I mentioned earlier, the mud flap brackets were beautifully crafted, but I wanted them to be a little less conspicuous.

Stainless Steel brackets (before powder coating):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Managed to install the front mudflaps:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Pleased with the results.
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