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jeromevw312
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:51 pm    Post subject: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

I bought this longblock about 10 years ago. Found it on craigslist, add said rebuilt baja bug engine. Had no particular need for it at the time, but an extra longblock is always a good thing to have. Went to look at it, old timer was getting ready to move into assisted living and clearing out house and garage. Said he had started building the engine 20 years ago (so now 30) for a baja bug but sold the baja before engine was complete so it had been sitting under his workbench ever since. Heads were not even bolted down. Pulled one head off and saw brand new 87mm pistons and a bunch of random bolt on parts, sensors, oil filter, sump, and the price was right so I bought it. Actually bought a ton of stuff from the guy, couple sets of 36 dellorto’s, original 019 blue screamer, couple sets of heads, it was the best craigslist score I ever found. Or so I thought until I started inspecting everything years later.

Anyways, fast forward 10 years its been sitting in my shed since I got it. I recently picked up a sweet Thing and although it runs great, it sat for a few years before I got it and after a couple months of driving, oil is just pouring out of it, leaking would be a gross understatement. I figured why not take a look at this longblock I have had sitting forever before attempting to chase leaks on the mostly unknown engine in the Thing now.

Full disclosure- I have owned and worked on lots of VW’s, did Autobody for years, went to college for autobody/restoration (not that I do it now, lol), but I have never rebuilt an air-cooled engine. Did a top end rebuild on a type 4 bus engine 20 years ago in high school shop. Only time I ever pulled heads.


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As you can see, bolt on this and thats. Brand new looking 86.95 pistons, so thin wall slip ins, 1641 Im guessing. Case is a HO which I am reading is a 1966 6v single port case, and apparently not the greatest, just what I have read here on samba so far. Sump is cool, but Remote oil cooler adapter needs to go and the silly multiple sender contraption. Sump seems like it is an old school quality piece and has yet another sender sticking out the back that was not even hand tight. Who knows what the numbers written on top mean. 100 could be cam, could be cut on case. Any guesses welcome.

I guess I did not really inspect or notice the heads when I bought the engine, because when I popped them off today I realized they are certainly not new or rebuilt for that matter, and look like they were just thrown on to seal up pistons. Crap. They do have 041 part numbers.

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Realizing the heads do not give me the warm and fuzzy feeling the tops of pistons and cylinders gave me 10 years ago, I figured I would see if I could pull the oil pump out and check for numbers on the cam. Pulled the bolts holding the pump filter housing off (shouldn’t it be studs, not bolts into case???). And the pump was filled with like a creamy goo. No idea what it is, not sludge, just creamy and the pump housing was full of it. Also realized that this style filter cover uses a special pump so I guess a regular pump puller will not work? Not that I have one, lol, I just did some searching on how to pull pump and realized of course there is a tool for that which I do not have and the tool will not work with this pump anyways. Considering I cannot use a puller and prying is not allowed, is there anyway I can get the pump off without splitting the case?

In order to make myself feel better, i decided to dig through my parts stash and find a set of fresh rebuilt dual port heads I had gotten from the same guy. They look clean, fresh with much larger valves than the heads that were on the longblock (Again, I know nothing about engine internals, but I can see one is bigger than the others, lol). Only one big issue I see - apparently the heads are 2 different castings. To my unknowing eyes, combustion chambers and valves look the same, but 2 totally different castings.


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So, what do I have here and where to go?
What is the cream in the oil pump?
Can I pull the oil pump and check cam without splitting the case?
Should I just split the case anyways?

Is it safe to use the rebuilt heads even though they are not the same castings? Obviously not ideal, but how should I make sure combustion chambers are set up the same?

Again, I have never split a case before, and honestly was hoping not to have to with this longblock.

Also, I am located in NJ so machine shops in general let alone ones that speak air-cooled don’t exist around here.

Thank You for any help or advice, I have a set of 36 DRLA dells, a 019 distributor and probably a tri-mil Thing exhaust I want to put on this longblock. Really not looking for anything extravagant, just need to decide if this engine is worth pursuing or if I should just get some spring loaded pushrod tubes for existing motor.
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jeromevw312
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Forgot pics of inside oil pump -

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jpaull
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:11 am    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

The oil pump is just filled with white lithium assembly grease. Thats what it looks like after so many years.
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oprn
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:43 am    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

It looks to me like you have some usable parts there. The case is not the latest and best but for basically a stock engine it will work. Don't be so shy to open up the case, you need to know what shape the bearing saddles are in before proceeding. It's not rocket science. It likely could use a good clean up too. We put a 87 mm slip in piston and cylinder set in my sister's type 3 over 30 years ago and she put many miles on them. They are fine.

The grease in the oil pump could be Lubriplate engine assembly lube and is perfect for an engine in storage.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

^^^^ X2 What you’ve got is a bunch of parts that may or may not have been put together properly. It needs to come apart everything cleaned and all tolerances measured. Whoever built it knew enough to prelube the oil pump to prime it, thats a good sign. I’d be more interested in how many times case was align bored and thrust cut. Maybe theres a surprise inside like a counterweight Okrasa crankshaft, who knows. I’d have that thing apart quicker than a cat could lick his ass. Very Happy
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babysnakes
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:30 am    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Purchase this book and use it. It is THE BEST book for building an engine.

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Bruce Amacker
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Pry up and down on the flywheel with a screwdriver, and in/out (behind the pulley and flywheel) to measure crank endplay. Both measurements should be almost nothing (.005" or less). If the crank moves up and down or in and out, the case has to be split. It doesn't look like he split the case during the last work.

Getting the pump out will be very difficult with the case together. Like you said, the tool won't help. A heat gun and a sharp screwdriver might get it out but you might do damage too. This problem has been discussed here before (about a CB Maxi 2 pump) without a good answer. I've always split the case to get them out during overhaul, I know of no tool which will help without wrecking the pump. BTW, I prefer that style of filter/pump. The cover gasket is specific, it might be the same as a CB.

CC the heads, if they're the same it might be OK to run them assuming important measurements are the same. Were they opened up or just flycut to remove the step (for slight increase in CR)? There's chatter marks which is not good, can you feel those with your fingertip?

If the flywheel is tight I'd reseal the pump cover and run it. If the flywheel is loose it needs to come apart.

The Tom Wilson book is good but quite old, there's a new book out (in color) that might help. I bought it for S&G and agree with most things but there's a few glaring mistakes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VOLKSWAGEN-ENGINES-REBUIL...2749.l2649

If you're a rookie buy both, along with a Bentley shop manual. I use the 71-79 Bentley for most stuff, I think it would cover your H case pretty well. Used copies are available here.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2329950

Run a compression test on the engine in your Thing to determine its health, maybe all it needs is PRTs or something simple. Oil leaks are much easier to fix than building an engine.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

jpaull wrote:
The oil pump is just filled with white lithium assembly grease. Thats what it looks like after so many years.


That's why we use Vaseline aint it?
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Ebel
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

At least one of those used heads looked cracked between the plug and seat. I wouldn’t waste time on them without checking that first.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Does it have a 4 or 8 dowel crank?

eQ
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jeromevw312
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

jpaull wrote:
The oil pump is just filled with white lithium assembly grease. Thats what it looks like after so many years.


That’s good news, I wasn’t sure what all that crud was, makes sense that it is assembly lube. At least I know it wasn’t ran after pump was installed.

Good sign
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jeromevw312
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Zundfolge1432 wrote:
^^^^ X2 What you’ve got is a bunch of parts that may or may not have been put together properly. It needs to come apart everything cleaned and all tolerances measured. Whoever built it knew enough to prelube the oil pump to prime it, thats a good sign. I’d be more interested in how many times case was align bored and thrust cut. Maybe theres a surprise inside like a counterweight Okrasa crankshaft, who knows. I’d have that thing apart quicker than a cat could lick his ass. Very Happy


Looks like I will be opening it up, here is to hoping...
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jeromevw312
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Bruce Amacker wrote:
Pry up and down on the flywheel with a screwdriver, and in/out (behind the pulley and flywheel) to measure crank endplay. Both measurements should be almost nothing (.005" or less). If the crank moves up and down or in and out, the case has to be split. It doesn't look like he split the case during the last work.

Getting the pump out will be very difficult with the case together. Like you said, the tool won't help. A heat gun and a sharp screwdriver might get it out but you might do damage too. This problem has been discussed here before (about a CB Maxi 2 pump) without a good answer. I've always split the case to get them out during overhaul, I know of no tool which will help without wrecking the pump. BTW, I prefer that style of filter/pump. The cover gasket is specific, it might be the same as a CB.

CC the heads, if they're the same it might be OK to run them assuming important measurements are the same. Were they opened up or just flycut to remove the step (for slight increase in CR)? There's chatter marks which is not good, can you feel those with your fingertip?

If the flywheel is tight I'd reseal the pump cover and run it. If the flywheel is loose it needs to come apart.

The Tom Wilson book is good but quite old, there's a new book out (in color) that might help. I bought it for S&G and agree with most things but there's a few glaring mistakes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VOLKSWAGEN-ENGINES-REBUIL...2749.l2649

If you're a rookie buy both, along with a Bentley shop manual. I use the 71-79 Bentley for most stuff, I think it would cover your H case pretty well. Used copies are available here.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2329950

Run a compression test on the engine in your Thing to determine its health, maybe all it needs is PRTs or something simple. Oil leaks are much easier to fix than building an engine.


Im just going to open it up and take a look at what its got, I do not want to risk messing up the pump or mounting surface. I really want to know if it has a cam in it, and if not I would like something to help take advantage of the 36 DRLA dells I have for it.

Good to know I need a specific gasket for that style pump/filter, still not sure if it will work in a Thing with the Tri-Mil thing exhaust. Going to post that question in the Thing group.

Not sure what you mean by “chatter marks” guessing uneven milling? I will see if I can feel them with fingertips. The heads are definitely still stock bore size, I test fit them on the cylinders. I guess I need to CC them to make sure. machining is at-least equal.

Thanks for the tip on the more resent book, I was going to get the Wilson book, but something more modern would probably be better.

Good point on checking the compression on the engine that came in the Thing, I should see what I got before just pulling it.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Ebel wrote:
At least one of those used heads looked cracked between the plug and seat. I wouldn’t waste time on them without checking that first.


I think you are referring to one of the used heads that was on the engine, I noticed that crack as well. I am hoping the other set of new but mismatched casting heads CC the same so I can use those instead, especially since they have bigger valves.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

earthquake wrote:
Does it have a 4 or 8 dowel crank?

eQ


Unfortunately no, it has a 4 dowel crank, that would have been a good sign.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Thank you all for the tips, I am going to split the case and see what I have and report back with pics.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Likely a stock crank then, not too many counter weighted ones out there that still have only 4 dowels.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

babysnakes wrote:
Purchase this book and use it. It is THE BEST book for building an engine.

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Yes sir that book is a keeper. I really like the interchange section breaking things down in a way which is easy to understand.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

Popcorn
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I wouldent waste $ or thyme on building a small motor. build it big so it dosent have to work hard.remember it's only as fast as your foot alows it to be unless you build a small turd then it just stinks as it squishes up through your toes when you step on it.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:59 am    Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - Reply with quote

jeromevw312 wrote:
Bruce Amacker wrote:
Pry up and down on the flywheel with a screwdriver, and in/out (behind the pulley and flywheel) to measure crank endplay. Both measurements should be almost nothing (.005" or less). If the crank moves up and down or in and out, the case has to be split. It doesn't look like he split the case during the last work.

Getting the pump out will be very difficult with the case together. Like you said, the tool won't help. A heat gun and a sharp screwdriver might get it out but you might do damage too. This problem has been discussed here before (about a CB Maxi 2 pump) without a good answer. I've always split the case to get them out during overhaul, I know of no tool which will help without wrecking the pump. BTW, I prefer that style of filter/pump. The cover gasket is specific, it might be the same as a CB.

CC the heads, if they're the same it might be OK to run them assuming important measurements are the same. Were they opened up or just flycut to remove the step (for slight increase in CR)? There's chatter marks which is not good, can you feel those with your fingertip?

If the flywheel is tight I'd reseal the pump cover and run it. If the flywheel is loose it needs to come apart.

The Tom Wilson book is good but quite old, there's a new book out (in color) that might help. I bought it for S&G and agree with most things but there's a few glaring mistakes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VOLKSWAGEN-ENGINES-REBUIL...2749.l2649

If you're a rookie buy both, along with a Bentley shop manual. I use the 71-79 Bentley for most stuff, I think it would cover your H case pretty well. Used copies are available here.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2329950

Run a compression test on the engine in your Thing to determine its health, maybe all it needs is PRTs or something simple. Oil leaks are much easier to fix than building an engine.


Im just going to open it up and take a look at what its got, I do not want to risk messing up the pump or mounting surface. I really want to know if it has a cam in it, and if not I would like something to help take advantage of the 36 DRLA dells I have for it.

Good to know I need a specific gasket for that style pump/filter, still not sure if it will work in a Thing with the Tri-Mil thing exhaust. Going to post that question in the Thing group.

Not sure what you mean by “chatter marks” guessing uneven milling? I will see if I can feel them with fingertips. The heads are definitely still stock bore size, I test fit them on the cylinders. I guess I need to CC them to make sure. machining is at-least equal.

Thanks for the tip on the more resent book, I was going to get the Wilson book, but something more modern would probably be better.

Good point on checking the compression on the engine that came in the Thing, I should see what I got before just pulling it.


That's probably the best way to go, take it apart and see for yourself what's inside.
That's what I would do.
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