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jeromevw312 Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2006 Posts: 236 Location: belmar, nj
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Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:51 pm Post subject: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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I bought this longblock about 10 years ago. Found it on craigslist, add said rebuilt baja bug engine. Had no particular need for it at the time, but an extra longblock is always a good thing to have. Went to look at it, old timer was getting ready to move into assisted living and clearing out house and garage. Said he had started building the engine 20 years ago (so now 30) for a baja bug but sold the baja before engine was complete so it had been sitting under his workbench ever since. Heads were not even bolted down. Pulled one head off and saw brand new 87mm pistons and a bunch of random bolt on parts, sensors, oil filter, sump, and the price was right so I bought it. Actually bought a ton of stuff from the guy, couple sets of 36 dellorto’s, original 019 blue screamer, couple sets of heads, it was the best craigslist score I ever found. Or so I thought until I started inspecting everything years later.
Anyways, fast forward 10 years its been sitting in my shed since I got it. I recently picked up a sweet Thing and although it runs great, it sat for a few years before I got it and after a couple months of driving, oil is just pouring out of it, leaking would be a gross understatement. I figured why not take a look at this longblock I have had sitting forever before attempting to chase leaks on the mostly unknown engine in the Thing now.
Full disclosure- I have owned and worked on lots of VW’s, did Autobody for years, went to college for autobody/restoration (not that I do it now, lol), but I have never rebuilt an air-cooled engine. Did a top end rebuild on a type 4 bus engine 20 years ago in high school shop. Only time I ever pulled heads.
As you can see, bolt on this and thats. Brand new looking 86.95 pistons, so thin wall slip ins, 1641 Im guessing. Case is a HO which I am reading is a 1966 6v single port case, and apparently not the greatest, just what I have read here on samba so far. Sump is cool, but Remote oil cooler adapter needs to go and the silly multiple sender contraption. Sump seems like it is an old school quality piece and has yet another sender sticking out the back that was not even hand tight. Who knows what the numbers written on top mean. 100 could be cam, could be cut on case. Any guesses welcome.
I guess I did not really inspect or notice the heads when I bought the engine, because when I popped them off today I realized they are certainly not new or rebuilt for that matter, and look like they were just thrown on to seal up pistons. Crap. They do have 041 part numbers.
Realizing the heads do not give me the warm and fuzzy feeling the tops of pistons and cylinders gave me 10 years ago, I figured I would see if I could pull the oil pump out and check for numbers on the cam. Pulled the bolts holding the pump filter housing off (shouldn’t it be studs, not bolts into case???). And the pump was filled with like a creamy goo. No idea what it is, not sludge, just creamy and the pump housing was full of it. Also realized that this style filter cover uses a special pump so I guess a regular pump puller will not work? Not that I have one, lol, I just did some searching on how to pull pump and realized of course there is a tool for that which I do not have and the tool will not work with this pump anyways. Considering I cannot use a puller and prying is not allowed, is there anyway I can get the pump off without splitting the case?
In order to make myself feel better, i decided to dig through my parts stash and find a set of fresh rebuilt dual port heads I had gotten from the same guy. They look clean, fresh with much larger valves than the heads that were on the longblock (Again, I know nothing about engine internals, but I can see one is bigger than the others, lol). Only one big issue I see - apparently the heads are 2 different castings. To my unknowing eyes, combustion chambers and valves look the same, but 2 totally different castings.
So, what do I have here and where to go?
What is the cream in the oil pump?
Can I pull the oil pump and check cam without splitting the case?
Should I just split the case anyways?
Is it safe to use the rebuilt heads even though they are not the same castings? Obviously not ideal, but how should I make sure combustion chambers are set up the same?
Again, I have never split a case before, and honestly was hoping not to have to with this longblock.
Also, I am located in NJ so machine shops in general let alone ones that speak air-cooled don’t exist around here.
Thank You for any help or advice, I have a set of 36 DRLA dells, a 019 distributor and probably a tri-mil Thing exhaust I want to put on this longblock. Really not looking for anything extravagant, just need to decide if this engine is worth pursuing or if I should just get some spring loaded pushrod tubes for existing motor. |
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jeromevw312 Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2006 Posts: 236 Location: belmar, nj
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Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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Forgot pics of inside oil pump -
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jpaull Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005 Posts: 3456 Location: Paradise, Ca
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:11 am Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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The oil pump is just filled with white lithium assembly grease. Thats what it looks like after so many years. |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12635 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:43 am Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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It looks to me like you have some usable parts there. The case is not the latest and best but for basically a stock engine it will work. Don't be so shy to open up the case, you need to know what shape the bearing saddles are in before proceeding. It's not rocket science. It likely could use a good clean up too. We put a 87 mm slip in piston and cylinder set in my sister's type 3 over 30 years ago and she put many miles on them. They are fine.
The grease in the oil pump could be Lubriplate engine assembly lube and is perfect for an engine in storage. |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12455
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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^^^^ X2 What you’ve got is a bunch of parts that may or may not have been put together properly. It needs to come apart everything cleaned and all tolerances measured. Whoever built it knew enough to prelube the oil pump to prime it, thats a good sign. I’d be more interested in how many times case was align bored and thrust cut. Maybe theres a surprise inside like a counterweight Okrasa crankshaft, who knows. I’d have that thing apart quicker than a cat could lick his ass. |
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babysnakes Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2008 Posts: 7104
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:30 am Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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Purchase this book and use it. It is THE BEST book for building an engine.
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Bruce Amacker Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2007 Posts: 1786 Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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Pry up and down on the flywheel with a screwdriver, and in/out (behind the pulley and flywheel) to measure crank endplay. Both measurements should be almost nothing (.005" or less). If the crank moves up and down or in and out, the case has to be split. It doesn't look like he split the case during the last work.
Getting the pump out will be very difficult with the case together. Like you said, the tool won't help. A heat gun and a sharp screwdriver might get it out but you might do damage too. This problem has been discussed here before (about a CB Maxi 2 pump) without a good answer. I've always split the case to get them out during overhaul, I know of no tool which will help without wrecking the pump. BTW, I prefer that style of filter/pump. The cover gasket is specific, it might be the same as a CB.
CC the heads, if they're the same it might be OK to run them assuming important measurements are the same. Were they opened up or just flycut to remove the step (for slight increase in CR)? There's chatter marks which is not good, can you feel those with your fingertip?
If the flywheel is tight I'd reseal the pump cover and run it. If the flywheel is loose it needs to come apart.
The Tom Wilson book is good but quite old, there's a new book out (in color) that might help. I bought it for S&G and agree with most things but there's a few glaring mistakes.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VOLKSWAGEN-ENGINES-REBUIL...2749.l2649
If you're a rookie buy both, along with a Bentley shop manual. I use the 71-79 Bentley for most stuff, I think it would cover your H case pretty well. Used copies are available here.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2329950
Run a compression test on the engine in your Thing to determine its health, maybe all it needs is PRTs or something simple. Oil leaks are much easier to fix than building an engine. _________________ '66 Deluxe Bus
'65 Standard Bus
Build threads:
'66- http://www.leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2888&sid=54d8dedfb3822f99c7f2ea430cb4e856
'65- http://leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4263 |
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Brian Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012 Posts: 8340 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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jpaull wrote: |
The oil pump is just filled with white lithium assembly grease. Thats what it looks like after so many years. |
That's why we use Vaseline aint it? _________________ Wash your hands
'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper
Only losers litter |
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Ebel Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2015 Posts: 564 Location: New york
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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At least one of those used heads looked cracked between the plug and seat. I wouldn’t waste time on them without checking that first. |
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earthquake Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008 Posts: 3984 Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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Does it have a 4 or 8 dowel crank?
eQ _________________ 74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison] |
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jeromevw312 Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2006 Posts: 236 Location: belmar, nj
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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jpaull wrote: |
The oil pump is just filled with white lithium assembly grease. Thats what it looks like after so many years. |
That’s good news, I wasn’t sure what all that crud was, makes sense that it is assembly lube. At least I know it wasn’t ran after pump was installed.
Good sign |
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jeromevw312 Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2006 Posts: 236 Location: belmar, nj
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
^^^^ X2 What you’ve got is a bunch of parts that may or may not have been put together properly. It needs to come apart everything cleaned and all tolerances measured. Whoever built it knew enough to prelube the oil pump to prime it, thats a good sign. I’d be more interested in how many times case was align bored and thrust cut. Maybe theres a surprise inside like a counterweight Okrasa crankshaft, who knows. I’d have that thing apart quicker than a cat could lick his ass. |
Looks like I will be opening it up, here is to hoping... |
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jeromevw312 Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2006 Posts: 236 Location: belmar, nj
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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Bruce Amacker wrote: |
Pry up and down on the flywheel with a screwdriver, and in/out (behind the pulley and flywheel) to measure crank endplay. Both measurements should be almost nothing (.005" or less). If the crank moves up and down or in and out, the case has to be split. It doesn't look like he split the case during the last work.
Getting the pump out will be very difficult with the case together. Like you said, the tool won't help. A heat gun and a sharp screwdriver might get it out but you might do damage too. This problem has been discussed here before (about a CB Maxi 2 pump) without a good answer. I've always split the case to get them out during overhaul, I know of no tool which will help without wrecking the pump. BTW, I prefer that style of filter/pump. The cover gasket is specific, it might be the same as a CB.
CC the heads, if they're the same it might be OK to run them assuming important measurements are the same. Were they opened up or just flycut to remove the step (for slight increase in CR)? There's chatter marks which is not good, can you feel those with your fingertip?
If the flywheel is tight I'd reseal the pump cover and run it. If the flywheel is loose it needs to come apart.
The Tom Wilson book is good but quite old, there's a new book out (in color) that might help. I bought it for S&G and agree with most things but there's a few glaring mistakes.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VOLKSWAGEN-ENGINES-REBUIL...2749.l2649
If you're a rookie buy both, along with a Bentley shop manual. I use the 71-79 Bentley for most stuff, I think it would cover your H case pretty well. Used copies are available here.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2329950
Run a compression test on the engine in your Thing to determine its health, maybe all it needs is PRTs or something simple. Oil leaks are much easier to fix than building an engine. |
Im just going to open it up and take a look at what its got, I do not want to risk messing up the pump or mounting surface. I really want to know if it has a cam in it, and if not I would like something to help take advantage of the 36 DRLA dells I have for it.
Good to know I need a specific gasket for that style pump/filter, still not sure if it will work in a Thing with the Tri-Mil thing exhaust. Going to post that question in the Thing group.
Not sure what you mean by “chatter marks” guessing uneven milling? I will see if I can feel them with fingertips. The heads are definitely still stock bore size, I test fit them on the cylinders. I guess I need to CC them to make sure. machining is at-least equal.
Thanks for the tip on the more resent book, I was going to get the Wilson book, but something more modern would probably be better.
Good point on checking the compression on the engine that came in the Thing, I should see what I got before just pulling it. |
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jeromevw312 Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2006 Posts: 236 Location: belmar, nj
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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Ebel wrote: |
At least one of those used heads looked cracked between the plug and seat. I wouldn’t waste time on them without checking that first. |
I think you are referring to one of the used heads that was on the engine, I noticed that crack as well. I am hoping the other set of new but mismatched casting heads CC the same so I can use those instead, especially since they have bigger valves. |
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jeromevw312 Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2006 Posts: 236 Location: belmar, nj
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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earthquake wrote: |
Does it have a 4 or 8 dowel crank?
eQ |
Unfortunately no, it has a 4 dowel crank, that would have been a good sign. |
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jeromevw312 Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2006 Posts: 236 Location: belmar, nj
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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Thank you all for the tips, I am going to split the case and see what I have and report back with pics. |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12635 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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Likely a stock crank then, not too many counter weighted ones out there that still have only 4 dowels. |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12455
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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babysnakes wrote: |
Purchase this book and use it. It is THE BEST book for building an engine.
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Yes sir that book is a keeper. I really like the interchange section breaking things down in a way which is easy to understand. |
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SBD Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2012 Posts: 3269 Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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_________________ "Just $99 down and $64 a month for 36 months buys you a brand new Volkswagen Beetle!"
mark tucker wrote: |
I wouldent waste $ or thyme on building a small motor. build it big so it dosent have to work hard.remember it's only as fast as your foot alows it to be unless you build a small turd then it just stinks as it squishes up through your toes when you step on it. |
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QRP Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008 Posts: 1703 Location: NORTH HOLLYWOOD,CA
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Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:59 am Post subject: Re: Mystery Longblock inspection - |
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jeromevw312 wrote: |
Bruce Amacker wrote: |
Pry up and down on the flywheel with a screwdriver, and in/out (behind the pulley and flywheel) to measure crank endplay. Both measurements should be almost nothing (.005" or less). If the crank moves up and down or in and out, the case has to be split. It doesn't look like he split the case during the last work.
Getting the pump out will be very difficult with the case together. Like you said, the tool won't help. A heat gun and a sharp screwdriver might get it out but you might do damage too. This problem has been discussed here before (about a CB Maxi 2 pump) without a good answer. I've always split the case to get them out during overhaul, I know of no tool which will help without wrecking the pump. BTW, I prefer that style of filter/pump. The cover gasket is specific, it might be the same as a CB.
CC the heads, if they're the same it might be OK to run them assuming important measurements are the same. Were they opened up or just flycut to remove the step (for slight increase in CR)? There's chatter marks which is not good, can you feel those with your fingertip?
If the flywheel is tight I'd reseal the pump cover and run it. If the flywheel is loose it needs to come apart.
The Tom Wilson book is good but quite old, there's a new book out (in color) that might help. I bought it for S&G and agree with most things but there's a few glaring mistakes.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VOLKSWAGEN-ENGINES-REBUIL...2749.l2649
If you're a rookie buy both, along with a Bentley shop manual. I use the 71-79 Bentley for most stuff, I think it would cover your H case pretty well. Used copies are available here.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2329950
Run a compression test on the engine in your Thing to determine its health, maybe all it needs is PRTs or something simple. Oil leaks are much easier to fix than building an engine. |
Im just going to open it up and take a look at what its got, I do not want to risk messing up the pump or mounting surface. I really want to know if it has a cam in it, and if not I would like something to help take advantage of the 36 DRLA dells I have for it.
Good to know I need a specific gasket for that style pump/filter, still not sure if it will work in a Thing with the Tri-Mil thing exhaust. Going to post that question in the Thing group.
Not sure what you mean by “chatter marks” guessing uneven milling? I will see if I can feel them with fingertips. The heads are definitely still stock bore size, I test fit them on the cylinders. I guess I need to CC them to make sure. machining is at-least equal.
Thanks for the tip on the more resent book, I was going to get the Wilson book, but something more modern would probably be better.
Good point on checking the compression on the engine that came in the Thing, I should see what I got before just pulling it. |
That's probably the best way to go, take it apart and see for yourself what's inside.
That's what I would do. |
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