Panel Replacement, Metal Fabrication Questions!!!

[63 vwnotch]

I've restored a few cars but my metal fab skills are nil as the previous candidates have always been 99% rust free.... However I'm currently looking for a project, not a complete basket case but close..

with that said there will be much metal work involved and while some new panel replacements are available some are not and for argument sake let's say there is no donor metal what type of metal do you buy to fab your own... is 16ga typical?? stainless?? not sure really and that's where this thread comes in, what have you used with success other than donor metal that is easy to fab...

project in question will most likely be an early Ghia or Beetle mostly complete but with much work needed... there are a few atm I am considering and all will need pans and most likely will need heater channels etc which I will buy, but some of the small body panels that need patched will require some fab work...

suggestions, guidance, advice appreciated..

oh and btw I haven't welded anything in over 20yrs..
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BUS WANTED: 13 window BUS any year considered..

[theKbStockpiler]

Sheet metal gauge falls between a range so sometimes 22 gauge is actually 21 gauge.

22 gauge is the thinnest your going to use for something that needs to be shaped a lot. I don't use it unless anything thicker is not practical. 19-18 is as thick you will use on something cosmetic like a door or fender.

14-16 gauge is for structural parts.
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My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask.

[63 vwnotch]

so just any type of sheet metal?? or is there a certain product to stay away from? a coating or manufacturer process issue...

Yeah I figured 16 for the heavy lifting.. so 20ga would probably be ideal for panel repairs.. but is still pretty stout to form let's say a radius?
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BUS WANTED: 13 window BUS any year considered..

[theKbStockpiler]

Actually 20 guage is perfect for a body panel. 21-19 is Okay. I just used some 18 on a door because I had a lot of it and it was pretty thick. I'm told that older cars used softer metal so that might be something to keep in the back of your head.

I get my sheetmetal, angle,tubing and such from a Place that sells "surplus steel". It's steel that a contractor buys and what ever is left over from the job, the seller buys back and resells. Sometimes it's slightly beat up but you get it for .50 a pound if you buy let's say 50 or more pounds. If you buy as little as 20 pounds, it's 1.00 a pound.

The point here is that unless you special order it by the truck load ,it's usually categorized as A36 steel. The 36 part might be the tinsel strength of 36000 psi. I think it's the same strength as a grade 3 bolt.

In my local ,Klein Steel Direct does not even stock all the different wall thicknesses of square tubing so you might have to over build your project.

Non surplus steel is called "Prime Steel" and you have to buy a whole sheet (4x8 maybe ? ) or in lengths of 20. They will cut it down for you so you can haul it away.

Galvanized steel gives off toxic fumes so you have to at least remove it from the weld area and have very good ventilation.

If you have to make a patch piece that has compound bends like a sphere, the skill level is much higher because you have to stretch the metal length wise. If you are just bending metal the one side is stretched and the other side is sort of shrunk or actually smushed "bulked up" over.
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My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask.

[Bobnotch]

I actually buy a partial sheet of bare non galvanized sheet steel from Lowes (4by2, for about 36 bucks). I think it's either 21 or 22 gauge, which is about as thick as most of the patch panels on the market today. Keep in mind that most patch panels are made with galvanized steel, so it's actually thinner, especially when you knock the galvanized off them (the fumes can kill you). I've also used the currently alvailable heater channels (bug and ghia), and both seem to be about the same thickness as the OE stuff (just buy the better quality pieces). It's when you start buying some of the more common ghia patch panels, that you realize that not all metal is created equal. Some is really good, while others are pure junk (even from the same supplier). These days it's all pretty much a crap shoot, and you're actually better off trying to find something that doesn't need a ton of metal replaced.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120

[63 vwnotch]

Point taken but I feel all warm and fuzzy inside and have a desire to save something from becoming part of the Earth,or a Pepsi can for that matter..

Nothing's in stone yet so maybe I'll keep looking last thing I need is an unfinished project for three years

there's a sLowes right down the street I'll have to check their offerings..
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BUS WANTED: 13 window BUS any year considered..

[jason]

Go by a metal supply and look for their remnants. Charge by pound. Lowes and the like have a 400% markup.

[Dr OnHolliday]

Just read a thread on an old Willys forum. Guy showed how he repurposed old hoods etc to make a Harley oil tank using only hand tools and self-made forms - no shrinker / stretcher, English wheel, or planishing hammer. A shrink disc and wood mallets and sandbag are used tho. The result was totally professional.

Learn these skills and you'll never have to buy another crappy patch panel.
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1965 Type 1 sunroof Baja / about 70k miles on self-rebuilt '74 1600 and counting / SP heads and aftermarket valve keepers / non-doghouse shroud with external cooler and filter / 1.5 qt extended sump / Weber 32/36 DFAV progressive carb / 009 dist with Pertronix / 1.25 ratio rockers and ball adjusters / 1.5" stainless steel J-pipes and carbon steel baja exhaust

[SdAufKla]

I've had very good experiences with these guys:

https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/

My local store is about a 45 min drive away, but their prices are reasonable for new materials, and for a small extra fee, they'll even cut the materials to size. They don't have any minimum size or quantity limits, and usually the selection onsite is very good. If you need something that's not in stock, they can order it for you (if you can wait a few days or a week).

They fit the niche between your big-box home improvement centers (Lowe's, Home Depot, Tractor Supply) which sell new metal in small quantities but at crazy prices, and the large, industrial metal suppliers that can't be bothered with small jobbers.

Be aware that new metal prices fluctuate some since metal is bought and sold on the commodities market (like lumber). New metal can seem a bit "spendy," especially if you haven't bought any in a few years. On the other hand, being able to get exactly what you need makes planning out projects much easier and quicker (especially if working off blue prints), and it saves a lot of effort when it comes to prep work for finishing (no rust or old paint to be removed and treated, pitting to be filled, etc).

Anyways, if they have a local store near you, it might be worth checking out.

I have no affiliation with them except as a satisfied customer.

[theKbStockpiler]

https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/

I vowed never to buy from these guys again and actually buy it by the sheet from Klein Steel if I had to. They charge a lot more for it per square if it is not a full sheet.
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask.

[SdAufKla]

[theKbStockpiler]

Klein will cut pieces down for you for free,exactly in half or they charge extra for more than one cut. If Metal Supermarkets has small pieces they mark them up. They are below the price of a home center so it's a deal compared to them. If I had bought a full sheet from Klein it was going to be $55. I got about 1/4 of that for $40. This is prime steel not surplus. I don't make easy money so I resent paying boutique prices. For an extra $15 I'll take the full sheet. Calli must have 5 times the steel industry central NY has. Klein used to cut down full pieces and put them with the surplus to boost sales but they stopped doing this. Right now I have to be prepaired to buy it by the sheet or the 20" length. Some suppliers sell retail. You don't have to be special.
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My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask.

[ateneo]

I use mild steel sheet metals from Schorr metals located at Placentia, CA. You can find them in the internet.

I always use a caliper measuring tool to check the thickness of the metal before choosing which gauge size sheet metal I will use. You can by a digital caliper tool at Harbor Freight for a few bucks.

Someone told me that welding mild steel & stainless steel together is not a good idea. I have seen some people do it but I prefer to weld even-type metals together. That is just my preference.

On body panels, I mostly use 20 gauge mild steel while on pillars & floors, I use 18 gauge.
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1966 Riviera camper Bus
1967 EZ camper bus
1971 Westfalia bus
1971 Deluxe bus
1969 Bus
1962 Bug
1963 Bug
"Rust free" means Rust is FREE. The rest is junk.

[bobnorman]

As indicated, it’s much cheaper to go to a metal place than to a Home Depot or similar, at least it is here. I went to a local sheet metal/fabrication shop and bought a 2x4’ piece of 18 gauge bare steel (closest size I could find to original floor pan material) for $30 Canadian, which is like .50 in your money (actually $22). By comparison at HD a 1x2’ piece of 22g at the time was $30.00. A 2x4 piece of 22g at Princess Auto (similar to Harbour Freight) was $46.

I think the box stores have inventory/pricing that from a couple years back when the price of sheet steel was sky high. Also, there is much less variety in the gauges - I recall only 16, 22, and 26 were available.
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Air does not freeze. Air does not boil.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=289807

[modok]

If you are looking for small bits of sheetmetal, there is no shortage of metal from actual VWs, and scrap.
Not only is it less expensive, it's usually better (as least as far as welding and working). You can't go wrong welding and working with UNIFORM material.
It may seem like using new metal saves time, but not really, you still have to prep it by grinding or blasting to remove scale and get tooth on the surface for paint.

Need a large piece, of a different thickness, then buy new cold rolled sheet.

There are many kinds of stainless steel and carbon steel, and sometimes you can weld them together and sometimes not. If not sure, try it. You can also see if it is magnetic and if it will weld with co2, can help figure out what it is, if you don't know. Stainless might be interesting but if you avoid lap joints and use good paint and right prep, then rust is not a problem. REally. Sounds so easy to say but it's not

[Chinaclipper]

Anybody have any experience with these guys?
Get Metals https://getmetals.com/
Looks like they have cold rolled steel sheets:
"1008 Steel is a cold rolled, high-strength, low-alloy steel with excellent weldability and formability. It is a commercial quality alloy that has an oiled surface with a smooth, matte finish often used in furniture, home appliances, and the automotive industry."
I checked; 18 ga 12"x24" sheet for $9.89.
That's 1.2mm steel plate according to my chart..
Does that sound pretty good?
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China Clippers Official 1971 Super Beetle Project!
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