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ZENVWDRIVER
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2008
Posts: 3340
Location: N.E. Oklahoma
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 Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| sled wrote: |
| ZENVWDRIVER wrote: |
My 1950 25 horse, definitely had one too and my 11/1952, did not. Perhaps was different manufacturers - So, yes and no - depending and then only one manufacturer, with no seam (ever again) at the number stated by Garwood - is a possibility.
i like what the Dali Lama says - if one will never know, for sure, the answer to something - why think about it? That might apply, here. |
none of what you're postulating is true. 46, 49, and 50...as well as up to spring of 1952 all had seamed shrouds. There were some differences yes, but the seam was always present.
the number stated by Garwood is not a possibility, and I'm not sure why you keep referencing that publication like it is the Bible.
Im sure Im coming off like a dick, and I apologize, but theres no reason to keep questioning information that is known to be true. |
- the number stated by Garwood IS a possibility, until someone can offer a more precise chassis number cutoff - And remember, we only become a dick or become irritated when we view anything only one way - is best to accept all possibilities -
- because no exact information is available, I think there are numerous possibilities - even Mr. Garwood's info - I wish, he was here to speak, for himself -
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5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'02 WestFORDia E-150, GAVE TO OUR SON
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djfordmanjack
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Joined: June 15, 2009
Posts: 2179
Location: Graz, Austria, Europe
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| Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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Guys, this might help.
this is engine # 1-0449368 which puts it in early June acc to Bob Wilson.
Unfortunately I have since sold this engine a logn time ago. but it obviously had a smooth fan housing. I have no reason to believe that this engine wasn't all original. see the oil filler, louvered generator band aso.
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splitjunkie
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Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4095
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| Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| djfordmanjack wrote: |
Guys, this might help.
this is engine # 1-0449368 which puts it in early June acc to Bob Wilson.
Unfortunately I have since sold this engine a logn time ago. but it obviously had a smooth fan housing. I have no reason to believe that this engine wasn't all original. see the oil filler, louvered generator band aso.
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That is a later shroud. The tabs for the wire harness should be up above the upper generator plate bolt. You can see this detail on the other pictures in this thread.
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ZENVWDRIVER
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2008
Posts: 3340
Location: N.E. Oklahoma
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| Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| djfordmanjack wrote: |
Guys, this might help.
this is engine # 1-0449368 which puts it in early June acc to Bob Wilson.
Unfortunately I have since sold this engine a logn time ago. but it obviously had a smooth fan housing. I have no reason to believe that this engine wasn't all original. see the oil filler, louvered generator band aso.
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… appreciate the input - I think, we are looking for an exact cutoff date or the chassis number that the seamed shroud ceased and the smooth type began.
_________________
5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'02 WestFORDia E-150, GAVE TO OUR SON
All super-heroes, wear a MASK |
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Mr. OGPaint
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2010
Posts: 823
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:20 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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Gentlemen, I believe this is could be what we are looking for, February 7th 1952
Remember these manuals were originally published in German and then translated. Upper Air Duct is the fan shroud, and the lateral support could be referring to the spot weld seam.
I also offer this very original late-February 1952 motor as evidence. Note in particular the extremely early non-seamed shroud with the high wiring mount that adds to the provenance and helps verify originality.
I believe this and other cars that have been offered supports FACTUALLY that the seamed shroud was phased out in the spring of 1952, most likely sometime in February. It would be great if some other known highly original cars from late 51/early 52 could be cited as supporting information.
Please share if you have any information to add to the discussion of the facts, but I very kindly ask if could we please leave Mr. Garwood out of it unless supporting documentation is added.
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Last edited by Mr. OGPaint on Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sled
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Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 6179
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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here is a large version of that page from PR.
I am not exactly sure what an upper air duct is, but in March you can see the 'hot air ducts' no longer had the cover plate fitted between. What I am understanding this as, is the "x" plate between the rear edge of the "sled tins" as we call them these days. With the stale air, they're part of the whole heater-box system.
That being said, what then could the upper air duct be? To me, that sounds like the fan shroud, because what else is both an air duct, and upper? Im not sure I would consider the seam to be lateral support, but it very well could be? Im wondering if there is some other detail that differentiates a seamed shroud from an early smooth shroud? Is there some kind of internal support? Is it the provision for securing the top of the oil cooler as seen on early engines? Does anyone know when this ended?
my point is, this is the only mention of an upper air duct change, and it is RIGHT where we have speculated it to be, in the spring of 1952. Coincidence?
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virtanen
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Joined: January 08, 2006
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Location: Finland
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sled
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Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 6179
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| virtanen wrote: |
Here the same in German.
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"side support plate omitted" my rough translation 
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ZENVWDRIVER
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2008
Posts: 3340
Location: N.E. Oklahoma
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| Mr. OGPaint wrote: |
Gentlemen, I believe this is could be what we are looking for, February 7th 1952
Remember these manuals were originally published in German and then translated. Upper Air Duct is the fan shroud, and the lateral support could be referring to the spot weld seam.
I also offer this very original late-February 1952 motor as evidence. Note in particular the extremely early non-seamed shroud with the high wiring mount that adds to the provenance and helps verify originality.
I believe this and other cars that have been offered supports FACTUALLY that the seamed shroud was phased out in the spring of 1952, most likely sometime in February. It would be great if some other known highly original cars from late 51/early 52 could be cited as supporting information.
Please share if you have any information to add to the discussion of the facts, but I very kindly ask if could we please leave Mr. Garwood out of it unless supporting documentation is added. |
I like the way you think and your non-combative approach - your logic is very believable - I will make an entry in my Garwood book, to reflect this information --- many thanks.
_________________
5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'02 WestFORDia E-150, GAVE TO OUR SON
All super-heroes, wear a MASK |
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mikeandkirsti
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Joined: June 16, 2009
Posts: 286
Location: EU
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:25 am Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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Not sure what the 7 Feb change refers to but changes usually never took place on a specific date; new parts were introduced and old parts remained mixed in production until stocks ran out. Therefore the seamless shroud came into production sometime in late February/early March while I am sure there are also later cars with seamed shrouds.
This is what happened with door handles around the same time, specifically late March/early April 1952. My 1 April 1952 Split has original G handles. Handles with Y-lock cylinders and KdF logos were replaced with handles with G-lock cylinders and VW logos. Y handles remained in production for another month or so mixed with Y´s until stocks ran out. |
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pastellgreen
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Joined: January 06, 2012
Posts: 1049
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:00 am Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| sled wrote: |
| virtanen wrote: |
Here the same in German.
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"side support plate omitted" my rough translation |
This is clearly not, what you are looking for. It has nothing to do with the shroud.
Mika, where to find the German Version of Progressive Refinements? |
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sled
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 6179
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| pastellgreen wrote: |
| sled wrote: |
| virtanen wrote: |
Here the same in German.
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"side support plate omitted" my rough translation |
This is clearly not, what you are looking for. It has nothing to do with the shroud.
Mika, where to find the German Version of Progressive Refinements? |
can you translate for us then?
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EverettB 
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Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69827
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| virtanen wrote: |
Here the same in German.
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For anyone who wants it typed out
Luftführungsgehäuse-Oberteil
Neu: Seitliches Stützblech entfällt
Google translate, which is weird sometimes, says:
Air duct housing shell
New: Lateral support plate is no longer required
I think a translation from a German person would be useful too
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pastellgreen
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2012
Posts: 1049
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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Everett, your direct translation is not far away from what is written there in german. "Oberteil" togehther with "Luftführungsgehäuse" would be "upper air duct housing", so for me it sounds as they mean the upper cylinder head cover, what they made from two piece to one piece in August 1951. Still confusing, as I have no idea which "latereal support plate" they could mean. What changes do the cylinder head cover have had during the 24,5 hp period?
Anyway: in Progressive Refinements, what you call "shroud" is named "fan housing". |
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kalymnos
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Joined: January 22, 2010
Posts: 112
Location: Hamburg/Germany
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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My guess: when it says "lateral support no longer fitted" it refers to this tin:
Picture is from Mika Virtanen |
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sled
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Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 6179
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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is it possible its #34 in this photo? the air vanes on top of the cylinders
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52 split
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Joined: December 19, 2007
Posts: 150
Location: the best island in the world, vancouver island
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| lateral when you look up the word is , side part of something. this to me would be as Sled wrote the X plate no longer used. |
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pastellgreen
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2012
Posts: 1049
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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The part Kalymnos pointet out goes together with the change from two piece to one piece in August 1951.
The hint from sled: the x-plate does not belong to a "upper" air duct, the shoeboxes belong to the lower air duct. Perhaps they mixed "Oberteil" and "Unterteil" in the original version and of course also in the translated version? Then it would mean the lateral support, that holds the x-plate, what sled was refering to.
Anyway, I'm convinced they didn't mean the fan housing. |
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djfordmanjack
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Joined: June 15, 2009
Posts: 2179
Location: Graz, Austria, Europe
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| Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:43 am Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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from a technical point as a trained machinery engineer, it would appear to me there is no logic into even mentioning the change between the seamed and seamless fan shroud, because it is simply a production method change and has no effect on fan efficiency or mounting to related engine parts. The two versions would interchange with no effect whatsoever (except visually). that's as if you bolted on a Hella OR a Bosch replacement headlight. they are different in looks but both fit. Maybe I am wrong.
Luftführungsgehäuse is not the same as Lüftergehäuse.
( air duct vs fan shroud)
would be great to see the German designations for Parts # 1, 33, 35 and 39. if any of them is titled Luftführungsgehäuse, it should become pretty obvious whats meant
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52 Barndoor DLX Coachbuild project
55 Wolfsburg panel project, og paint Taubenblau L31
62 Dickholmer, custom color Seeblau L360
63 1500 Notch, og paint Rubin Rot L456
67 1500 Käfer, og paint Lotus weiß L282 w/red interior |
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virtanen
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