Author |
Message |
BCgee Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 126 Location: Montana
|
Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:50 am Post subject: Experience With SVX Throttle Body Intake Box From VanCafe? |
|
|
Slowly improving components of my SVX swap in terms of electrical and acceleration and came across Van Cafe's 'Throttle Body Intake Box." Anyone use one and if so, could you please share your experience?
https://www.vancafe.com/SVX-VANAGON-INTAKE-BOX-p/svx-intbox.htm
Looks like the limited production run is still in stock but won't be reproduced again; if VC's aftermarket piece could help smooth out throttle and acceleration patterns/prevent known weak links in the SVX swap I might need to pick one up.
Thanks in advance for any feedback. _________________ 1987 SVX Syncro Hightop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
flomulgator Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2013 Posts: 950 Location: Leavenworth, WA
|
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Experience With SVX Throttle Body Intake Box From VanCafe? |
|
|
I think if anything it will increase turbulence through the throttle body, as it is a reduction in volume of the large stock throttle body intake box. Probably not an issue though as someone would've reported this as an issue by now if it existed (this part was produced for years as a whole intake system).
The bigger benefit is durability. Most DIY jobs (mine included) are cut and weld jobs to make the plastic box shorter, and it still takes up more space then this does which makes intake manifold service work very difficult. All those pipe nubs are plastic too and will only get weaker over time. This small aluminum box addresses both of those.
Do you have throttle/acceleration issues? _________________ She's built like a steakhouse, but she handles like a bistro! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Howesight Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008 Posts: 3274 Location: Vancouver, B.C.
|
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Experience With SVX Throttle Body Intake Box From VanCafe? |
|
|
"Slowly improving components of my SVX swap in terms of electrical and acceleration and came across Van Cafe's 'Throttle Body Intake Box." Anyone use one and if so, could you please share your experience?
https://www.vancafe.com/SVX-VANAGON-INTAKE-BOX-p/svx-intbox.htm
Looks like the limited production run is still in stock but won't be reproduced again; if VC's aftermarket piece could help smooth out throttle and acceleration patterns/prevent known weak links in the SVX swap I might need to pick one up.
Thanks in advance for any feedback."
Like Flomulgator, I modified my own factory SVX air box. So long as the modified factory air box has no air leaks, it will not be contributing to the "throttle and acceleration patterns" that you describe above. In that case, the problem is likely elsewhere. I have had my own difficulties sorting those issues. Based on my own experiences, and assuming that you have already gone over all the vacuum hose connections on, under and around the intake manifold, then here are my thoughts:
1. The most likely source of poor throttle response, especially if you notice that the problem is much worse with a cold engine, is a failing Throttle Position Sensor. The factory manual has a testing protocol for them.
2. But a very simple test is also available. If you notice that your engine bogs when driven right after a cold start, but improves once the engine warms up, then this is a strong sign that the TPS is faulty. Test the theory the next time you are about to do a cold start by flooring the accelerator and releasing it fully say, 20 or 25 times before cranking the starter. Then start as usual. If the bogging disappears or improves noticeably on this start, then you can be 99% certain that the failing TPS was the main factor. My theory as to why this works is that the carbon traces in the TPS can be "cleaned" to some degree by this process and do the job they were intended to do. But note that the TPS is a $300 item with no aftermarket replacements that I have seen. This is why I still do the accelerator pedal (but only 10 times) dance on cold weather starts. The more my rig is driven, the less the symptom appears.
3. My SVX engine, on a couple occasions, threw codes after a long drive in salty, wet road conditions. Disconnecting the main harness connectors (at the firewall, not at the ECU), cleaning them and applying copious amounts of WD40 eliminated the faults. That firewall-area connector bundle gets a lot more exposure to the elements in the Vanagon than in the SVX car installation.
4. It is worthwhile checking and cleaning the MAF sensor filament with MAF sensor cleaner, just to eliminate the possible problem of it being covered with dirt. In the SVX-to-Vanagon installation, it is very easy to incorrectly install the Subaru air filter and, in any event, the rear-engine install leaves more dust for the filter to deal with. The MAF sensor is easily coated with dust that gets past the air filter.
5. It is also helpful to carefully clean the electrical connector at the MAF sensor.
6. If you have hesitation or other running problems when the engine is fully warmed up, then do make absolutely certain that your oxygen sensor wires are not mixed up such that the 2-4-6 sensor wire is connected to the 1-3-5 sensor and vice-versa.
The SVX ECU, like most modern EFI systems, ignores the oxygen sensor signal during warm up until the coolant temperature threshold is reached. In the meantime, transient throttle enrichment is mainly controlled by the inputs from the TPS, not the MAF sensor, although the MAF sensor does contribute. If the TPS is not working properly, then there will be hesitation, aka bogging when the throttle is opened because insufficient additional fuel is being injected. _________________ '86 Syncro Westy SVX |
|
Back to top |
|
|
wasserbox Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2008 Posts: 533 Location: Durango, CO
|
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Experience With SVX Throttle Body Intake Box From VanCafe? |
|
|
No idea about performance claims, but the design addresses some issues I have with the original.
I have the original square version of this. It hits the bottom of the rear deck exactly at the spot that has been angled off on this model. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
BCgee Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 126 Location: Montana
|
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Experience With SVX Throttle Body Intake Box From VanCafe? |
|
|
Thank you each for the detailed feedback above. Howesight - I especially appreciate your experience troubleshooting potential TPS problems.
Presently my acceleration issues are two-fold. Cold conditions exacerbate a herky-jerky acceleration below 3k rpms (but not consistently), with a related inconsistent idle stumble. Second, the top end power and responsiveness in 5th gear is weaker than desirable on inclines, albeit driving at 6-8k elevation and my transmission has stock gearing. Conversely no problem holding a steady 65mph on flats.
Related note: I identified a failing coil pack as a leading potential culprit of erratic idle stumble and funky acceleration patterns and am replacing all coil packs and plugs proactively for a new baseline.
As to potential MAF sensor or TPS problems related to or contributing to acceleration challenges, I should note that I have installed an aftermarket VC Subaru air box and DIY CAI in the driver side D pillar. I’ve tested for leaks and feel confident the system, including the MAF, is functioning properly. That air intake modification was critical for me being a yearlong driver in snowy conditions; the stock SVX air intake drawing from the engine bay behind the rear wheel would suck in powder snow and create dangerous potential for hydro locking the engine.
I’ve also recently rebuilt a new exhaust system including new O2 sensors and feel confident they are in the correct locations. Acceleration jerky jerky symptoms have become worse since a recent road trip with wet driving conditions making me think that I may be experiencing cumulative electrical failures with my plugs given their exposed condition on the engine behind the wheels.
Coming full circle I am interested in the VC TB intake box because I’m aware of the NLA status of many SVX parts and reasonable potential for failure of my original circa ‘92 eg33 parts to fail. I try not to replace items unless necessary, but given my acceleration troubleshooting I was interested in others’ experiences. Everyone’s feedback above is very helpful to both brainstorming and being a better SVX Vanagon owner - thank you!
I’ll finish the plug and pack replacement, get some more miles under the belt, then assess whether I need to dig into either TB intake replacement and/or further work on the TPS system.
Thanks again for the insights SVX owners! _________________ 1987 SVX Syncro Hightop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
BCgee Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 126 Location: Montana
|
Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Experience With SVX Throttle Body Intake Box From VanCafe? |
|
|
Update here: full coil pack and plug replacement cured all acceleration symptoms. After several hundred miles and a hard look at the old plugs I’m positive the acceleration issue was linked to electrical shorts.
I’m still experiencing an erratic high idle/rpm around 2k when at a traffic light or stopped on traffic. Next troubleshooting will be taking apart and reinstalling, carefully, my modified SVX airbox and CAI up the drivers D-pillar. Will also clean the MAF and scrub engine grounds on the driver’s side chassis mount (single bolt that’s exposed to filth). One at a time of course.
Fingers crossed. Still not sold on replacing the TB with the VC model, yet. _________________ 1987 SVX Syncro Hightop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tjet Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 3533 Location: CA & NM
|
Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Experience With SVX Throttle Body Intake Box From VanCafe? |
|
|
I'm planning on installing this '89 ER27 into my Syncro by this summer. I'm either going to get a Megasquirt EFI system, or an SDS with the coil pack option.
I still need to figure out the accessory drive system, specifically the power steering pump. These engines never came with power steering. I'm hoping I can adapt an EJ22 power steering pump and alternator with all the factory brackets minus the AC compressor.
Here's my '90 EJ22 that I plan on robbing the accessories from:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1890528.jpg |
|
Back to top |
|
|
r39o Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 9800 Location: San Diego
|
Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: Experience With SVX Throttle Body Intake Box From VanCafe? |
|
|
Riddle me this: Just how will you get this past the CARB????? _________________ "Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tjet Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 3533 Location: CA & NM
|
Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Experience With SVX Throttle Body Intake Box From VanCafe? |
|
|
I have it registered in CT, which has a 25 year "rolling" smog test requirement.
The van now lives in California so it wont rust anymore then it already has.
I do plan on keeping my stock wbx engine if I ever need to get CA plates.
Last edited by tjet on Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
r39o Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 9800 Location: San Diego
|
Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Experience With SVX Throttle Body Intake Box From VanCafe? |
|
|
You have 90 days to swap plates to CA. The popo is very alert to this sort of stuff. You need smog every other year. Have fun! _________________ "Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tjet Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 3533 Location: CA & NM
|
Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Experience With SVX Throttle Body Intake Box From VanCafe? |
|
|
Been there 3 years and all good so far, but thanks for the heads up. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
vandroid Banned
Joined: July 26, 2018 Posts: 64
|
Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Experience With SVX Throttle Body Intake Box From VanCafe? |
|
|
r39o wrote: |
You have 90 days to swap plates to CA. The popo is very alert to this sort of stuff. You need smog every other year. Have fun! |
He will learn. My wife and I sure did. 💰 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
j_dirge Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 4641 Location: Twain Harte, CA
|
Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Experience With SVX Throttle Body Intake Box From VanCafe? |
|
|
Howesight wrote: |
6. If you have hesitation or other running problems when the engine is fully warmed up, then do make absolutely certain that your oxygen sensor wires are not mixed up such that the 2-4-6 sensor wire is connected to the 1-3-5 sensor and vice-versa.
|
After many years sitting idle in the garage.. I finally got my SVX installed (with some help)
The install looks great.. quality components used.. SVX refreshed. Trans rebuilt. TBD added with oiling plates. Taller gears. 930 CVs.
Woot!
Got it running.. and ugh.. ran like crap. Especially when cold.
Boooooo!
It would gag.. cough.. sputter.. backfire. It would backfire at idle!
It would launch at around 2700-3000 rpm like a turbo kicked on. (IRIS valve mysteries, I wondered?).. which was impressive in a weird IRIS valve kind of way.
WTH? I thought...
Did TPS, helped a little.
Checked plugs for inconsistent color.. nope. Color even.
New plugs. New coil packs. And serviced injectors from refresh effort.. Was not likely any of that, and I began to worry it was a bad wire in the harness.
So I was about to start troubleshooting the harness.. which is a nightmare.
BUT!.. I decided to try swapping the O2s, first.. I had vaguely recalled this advice. And well.. Why not? Its easy enough.
And voila!
Runs like a champ, now.. and arguably better now than it did when it was mated to the original Sub auto in the original SVX car.
I love my Van-again.
Thanks Howesight! _________________ -89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
flomulgator Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2013 Posts: 950 Location: Leavenworth, WA
|
Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Experience With SVX Throttle Body Intake Box From VanCafe? |
|
|
Would a troubled TPS sensor cause it to get stuck in the warm up cycle (high RPMs) on cold start on cold days? My van will retain a high idle (2,000 rpm) even after running for a while and warming the engine. If I cycle the ignition after warmup low idle (600 rpm) is restored. Symptom larger absent in summer.
Such a minor complaint in the grand scheme of SVX Syncro Westy ownership that I’ve largely ignored it but now I’m curious _________________ She's built like a steakhouse, but she handles like a bistro! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
BCgee Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 126 Location: Montana
|
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Experience With SVX Throttle Body Intake Box From VanCafe? |
|
|
flomulgator wrote: |
Would a troubled TPS sensor cause it to get stuck in the warm up cycle (high RPMs) on cold start on cold days? My van will retain a high idle (2,000 rpm) even after running for a while and warming the engine. If I cycle the ignition after warmup low idle (600 rpm) is restored. Symptom larger absent in summer.
Such a minor complaint in the grand scheme of SVX Syncro Westy ownership that I’ve largely ignored it but now I’m curious |
Curious what others think on this sticky high idle issue. My SVX also keeps a high idle on cold days for what seems an excessively long time (up to 10+ min), but without fail drops to the 600rev mark in due time. In summer the wait period is significantly decreased. As you say, small issue in an otherwise awesome platform. _________________ 1987 SVX Syncro Hightop |
|
Back to top |
|
|
j_dirge Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 4641 Location: Twain Harte, CA
|
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Experience With SVX Throttle Body Intake Box From VanCafe? |
|
|
BCgee wrote: |
flomulgator wrote: |
Would a troubled TPS sensor cause it to get stuck in the warm up cycle (high RPMs) on cold start on cold days? My van will retain a high idle (2,000 rpm) even after running for a while and warming the engine. If I cycle the ignition after warmup low idle (600 rpm) is restored. Symptom larger absent in summer.
Such a minor complaint in the grand scheme of SVX Syncro Westy ownership that I’ve largely ignored it but now I’m curious |
Curious what others think on this sticky high idle issue. My SVX also keeps a high idle on cold days for what seems an excessively long time (up to 10+ min), but without fail drops to the 600rev mark in due time. In summer the wait period is significantly decreased. As you say, small issue in an otherwise awesome platform. |
I am experiencing similar.. even now with the O2 sensors harness swapped to correct sides.
BUT.. I have not seen 2000rpm. My highest cold idle is 1500ish and only at first start on a cooler morning.. it drops on its own to about 1000 after it reaches half op speed per VW temp dash gauge. Second and third starts of any typical day start at about 1250rpm at idle.. then drop to 1000, then 800.
If I stop and restart the engine immediately it drops to 800 once warm (but not operating temp necessarily).. at the point when the VW temp sensor triggers the radiator fan. On mine that's just below the red LED.
Last night I took it on its longest drive since resolving the O2 sensor issue, and after 15 mins or so it dropped to 800rpm idle on its own. It does seem to keep a higher than spec cold idle, longer than I'd expect. By the time I reached my destination (140 miles), it was idling at 650 at operating temp.
I am attributing that to the ECU maybe learning? I did clear the ECU once the O2 sensors were resolved.
So.. 2 things.
1. I want to put my timing gun on it and check real rpm.. to verify my tach is correct.
2. The TPS does affect idle speed.. I adjusted mine to exactly 0.5v.. and then I played with the mechanical set of the throttle a bit. Idle seemed high with TPS at 0.5v.. but turning it lower, only made things run rough.. so left it at spec 0.5v. (on a digital gauge.. 0.50v to be precise.)
I'll defer to Howesight and others on this.. as I am still only learning the nuances of this engine and have only 2000 miles or so in on it.
Worth noting.. the 02 sensors, once resolved, cleared up almost every weird little FI behavior I had observed in driving this since engine installed.
I had a twitchy throttle. No more.
Smooth accel from idle to 4k and above.
I am geared to do 65mph at 2300rpm. and at 2300 rpm and below the engine could bog a little.. below 2000, like when crawling on a dirt road.. it was awful. Now.. I can smoothly drive off from a stop at idle in 1st.. by feathering the clutch. On a flat stop, I can feather out at idle in 2nd gear with ease.
There is no more 2700-3000rpm rocket launch. ( I assumed from when the IRIS opens and effectively connects both sides of the intake which would?)
I'll be filling the tank today, tomorrow.. to check mpg.
I was getting a horrid 10 on dirt, 11 in town, 13-14 (at best) on HWY.
(2WD, not syncro) _________________ -89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
|