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A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread
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white74westy
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:26 am    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

orwell84 wrote:
Just to make sure I am following you...as I am in the same place...

You pulled apart an engine built by a reputable builder because of low oil pressure and found the crazy ball valve thing and out of spec case.

You started with a crank that had already been ground 1 undersize (.010) and measured it before and after polish. You also had a spare 1.7 crank that also looks like it was ground one undersize at some point.

You had your rods balanced, rebushed, etc.

You also had the machine shop check the weight of pistons, pins etc. I know they are AA pistons. Were they new or used? Did the machine shop do any other checks or work on them?

Sorry to jump in on your thread, but it has been really helpful to read along.
I have the exact same hope of going camping with my family by the end of June. All my metalwork and paint deadlines are out the window as more than anything I would like to build a reliable engine and not worry when taking longer trips.

You look like your on the right track.


You are absolutely welcome to jump in any time. I'm happy to have people do so, particularly if we end up helping others down the road, when it is their turn.

There were so many inconsistencies in the engine build that I received, so I have a hard time calling him "reputable." Everything that is required to build an ACVW engine, can and will be done properly by the owner, as long as he or she is willing to invest the time and effort in getting it right. There are inumberable stories about just how forgiving these platforms can be, even when things are not ideal. Amazingly, the engine will still try to perform. That in mind, if one is willing to do due dilligence, I'm confident that a good working engine can and will be built. Nobody is going to go over your stuff to a standard that will make you happy, better than you will!!! That is the takeaway lesson that I've learned here. You can pay people to do the work, however, the vast majority are under the pressure of deadlines, that allows them to pump out work that is satisfactory at best. Others that don't adhere to those standards and take great pride in keeping their names' clean, will adjust peoples' expectations specific to time-frames and expense. You will get what you pay for. Conversely, you should expect to get exactly what you paid for if you paid a premium, and should be able to hold the seller to the standard that he or she claims. Apologies, rant over. Didn't mean for it to sound that way. Smile

Yes the crank had been cut out west, while it was at the engine builder's place. He sends them out to be done. I had it poished when I had the rods re-bushed etc. The 1.7 has also been cut, but is yet to be polished. Saved for another day/project. Not sure may even get rid of it, somewhere down the road.

I ordered new pistons and liners from John at aircooled.net. They came balanced to within 0.5 grams. John clearly knows what he's doing and I figured paying him the $ to make sure that things would be acceptable out of the box was a good start. I checked all the weights etc. once I took posession of them. Very happy with the results! Hopefully we'll get some good news from Rocky, with regards to the case.

I'm actually considering selling the heads too. I must confess, that from all outward appearances, they seem to have been done well. I had AMC heads reworked. They were ported and polished, 3 angle job, new valves etc. The engine pulled really nicely. Temps etc were good. As I've stated many times before, I just got tired of the nagging feeling that the next time I turned the key, and pulled away was going be the time that the engine finally grenaded because of the oil pressure issues. Rolling Eyes
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:43 am    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

A couple thoughts..

Most crank grinders know how to use a mic.
If you have one of these expensive machines,
And are making a living using it,
You know how to read a mic.

That said,
The measurements I get, being trained as a prototype machinist,
Indicate that crank grinders are heavy-handed with their mics.
All freshly-ground cranks seem to measure right when you smash the thimble down on the journal tight.
Us fussy aircraft types use mics with a light hand vs. automotive guys,
Especially if they are in V8 world.. Wink

See if your crank isnít the same..

Now,
If the crank has been worn and/or polished,
Then this wonít be the case, the opposite in fact,
And youíre likely to be a tenth or more under from exact spec.

In the end,
Because of bearing crush and variations,
The actual number doesnít matter, just the clearance to the bearing.


FWIW,
Adrianís heads were known for a long time to be good heads.
Iíd run a set of those with reasonable confidence.
But,
Iíd be keeping an eye on valve adjustment..

No matter what, as long as youíre running solid lifters,
You will know in advance if thereís any issues with the heads,
As the valve adjustment will move.

Main thing that might go wrong with heads, thatís the builderís fault will be seats.
And youíre very likely to see that coming from a long ways away if youíre watching your valves.
(Every 3,000 miles at oil change time).

Thereís also the chance of guides being wrong,
Especially tight,
But tight would have showed by now.

Loose will take a while,
But, again, youíll know theyíre going by the sound if youíre paying attention.

All said,
Iíd still even vote for a set of Adrian heads vs. new stock AMC.

Iíve seen quite a few of his heads and no issues.


Oh, and, Glad Ďorwell84í is following this,
It all overlaps really well.
Saves me some typing! Razz
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mike77777
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

been following your thread, good project. Have had my 77 for 10 or so years now. John @ Aircooled.net was very helpful with dual carb setup, had a single weber setup when bought. 2000 miles on full rebuild 2.0 liter now, it all takes time and attention to detail for me. Good luck in the new year!
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

Quote:
Us fussy aircraft types use mics with a light hand vs. automotive guys,


not all are heavy handed. The ones who had good mentors know how to hold, and use a mic to get correct readings. I think some folks (not you) rely on the small thumb wheel to get readings rather than by feel as they should.
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I am not telling you what to, or what not to do. When a suggestion is offered, it is wishing you the best, & is based on my experiences as a mechanic, automotive machinist, & from racing in the era your bus came to life.
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orwell84
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:06 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

The ratchet thimble seems to be an attempt to standardize what the instrument does and eliminate individual differences in ďfeelĒ from the equation. I find that when I use it, it overtightens enough to leave marks on the journals when I remove it. At least in calibrating with a standard, the standard seems to deflect when over- tightened.

The more technically minded videos or things Iíve read show using the ratchet on the thimble. Videos Iíve seen made by real machinists show using the main thimble to feel the surfaces as it is loosened/tightened.

There is a specific way to hold it, but it seems like the most important thing seems to be developing this feel however it works out best. Iím thinking itís something like using feeler gauges. The surfaces of the micrometer should slide across the journals with a slight resistance...one of those things that requires a suspension of thinking...once you have the right feel. I think it might help to have different standards or blocks to at least know accurately one measures.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

At many shops there will be inspectors coming around to certify that measuring equipment meets standards.

Having all of this going on in the first shop I worked,
My (China) standards were more finely-finished for accuracy.

It was fun to have all of these really anal guys getting my mic standards to 1/2 a tenth or so,
Even if I wasnít that good.

If your standards are at a certain level,
And the mic repeats on a standard at each end of its travel,
Then it will be accurate, cheap China or not.


I never knew anyone who ever used the clutch, FWIW.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

Youíll see these little calibration tags on mics that were certified..

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

Like was said before,
The standards donít matter.

What the real number is, who cares?

You only need the clearance from journal to bearing.

Rocky will make sure the case is cut to spec,
And hopefully the bearing manufacturer will make sure the bearing is to spec.
Since youíre not cuttting the case or making the bearings,
All you can do is check the crush.
And, again, itís just the difference, or delta,
Between the main saddle ID and bearing OD.

You just try and measure best you can and hopefully look for some crush.

Having to sand down the halves of the center main just a *tad* to close the case gap is usually a good sign.

I wrote up a bit on a junky type 1 I did a while back,
FWIW..
Maybe makes more sense with pics..

You can ignore 95% of it; being type 1 garbage. Wink

Just clean everything up and do the measurements several times.
Write the numbers down,
Then hide them from yourself and do it again later after sleep.
See if the numbers repeat.. Wink


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

mike77777 wrote:
been following your thread, good project. Have had my 77 for 10 or so years now. John @ Aircooled.net was very helpful with dual carb setup, had a single weber setup when bought. 2000 miles on full rebuild 2.0 liter now, it all takes time and attention to detail for me. Good luck in the new year!
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Thank you!
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

^^^Straight-cut cam gears?^^^

Cool to have your bus sound like it has a blower, I guess.. Cool


Dang,
Here I was all excited to hear the details of a Rocky Jennings stock type 4 case!
Razz
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

There's so much to speak to, regarding the material referenced above, specific to taking accurate measurements. My neighbor that has been helping me with all of it is very fine with his touch. He's had years to develop that sense. This is a guy that is used to measuring very, very accurately. When Clatter and others mention some of the units of measure, I believe it is hard for some people to perceive just how small we're talking!!! In some cases, less than the thickness of a hair! Clearly I have a lot of practicing to do! Laughing Laughing Laughing Anybody can throw a mic on something and get a measurement. That's easy...I've already done that. Getting consistent, accurate, and repeatable measurements is a completely different story. My hat goes off to those who do it and do it well!

Oh and BTW, I remeber being told specifically not to use the wheel on the end of the mic.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:



Dang,
Here I was all excited to hear the details of a Rocky Jennings stock type 4 case!
Razz


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Settle down Clatter! See below Cool
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white74westy
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

Alright...where were we?

So I sent the case out to Rocky Jennings. You might recall that I was told it was going to be several weeks before he would be able to get to my case. He said that once it arrived, he would inspect it to make sure it was still usable, and let me know what work he thought might be needed. Upon inspection, I would get an estimate of the work to be done, and that a 50% deposist would be required to get started.

Here's what I sent him:
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I think someone with an eagle eye may have mentioned it earlier in the thread, that the "ear" had been broken off of the breather tower. I cannot remember how it happened. Either way, that is of little consequence now. It was damaged and needed to be repaired, before we could go any further!

I was nicely surprised with an email earlier this week from Rocky, with the following attachments:

Work has begun:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Welded up:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Case parting line looks good:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I received the estimate for the work yet to be done. Line-bore, drill and tap plugs, deck the case. I can't wait!!!

I also asked him about bearings. He mentioned that he uses Silverline bearings and orders them as needed?

Any feelings/opinions on the matter? I've got NOS KS bearings, however, none of them will fit the cam or the case, since both will have been cut.

I would love to be able to source some NOS German bearings!

As soon as I get the case back, I'll be sure to post up the pics of the work that was done.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

Silverline are supposedly the best main bearings currently available excluding old NOS German stuff. They are steel-backed and made in Mexico.

People in the engines forum say that the mains are dimensionally on point and that jibes with my recent experience in installing a set in my engine that's going together.

I would not sweat using Silverline mains.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:49 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
I would not sweat using Silverline mains.


Same, on the last several engine's I've used them on.

BE SURE to communicate your thrust needs with RJE. Type 4 maine bearings are getting really hard to find with any non-standard thrust oversize. Do not touch the thrust surface of the case unless ABSOLUTELY necessary.

Robbie
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:17 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
Silverline are supposedly the best main bearings currently available excluding old NOS German stuff. They are steel-backed and made in Mexico.

People in the engines forum say that the mains are dimensionally on point and that jibes with my recent experience in installing a set in my engine that's going together.

I would not sweat using Silverline mains.


Thanks for the heads up! It's nice to hear real life experience...I greatly appreciate it!

a.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:20 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
sjbartnik wrote:
I would not sweat using Silverline mains.


Same, on the last several engine's I've used them on.

BE SURE to communicate your thrust needs with RJE. Type 4 maine bearings are getting really hard to find with any non-standard thrust oversize. Do not touch the thrust surface of the case unless ABSOLUTELY necessary.

Robbie


Thanks for checking in Robbie!

I have communicated with Rocky, regarding thrust. The thrust on the case and the lifter bores check out. However, he can only locate bearings that meet my needs, case .020 and crank .010 with an oversized thrust main. He has offered to cut it down to fit. Think I'm going to take him up on it.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

It looks like you need bearing PN 021198493A. BugHaus in Tulsa lists them on their website. Give them a phone call; they're good dudes who can answer questions. BusDepot also lists a set for those specs under the same part number.

Again, you can ALWAYS turn a bearing on a lathe. You can't always un-cut a case. I hope that makes sense. Wink

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
It looks like you need bearing PN 021198493A. BugHaus in Tulsa lists them on their website. Give them a phone call; they're good dudes who can answer questions. BusDepot also lists a set for those specs under the same part number.

Again, you can ALWAYS turn a bearing on a lathe. You can't always un-cut a case. I hope that makes sense. Wink

Robbie


Correct on all counts! I went back and read what I wrote yesterday, specific to the bearings. I can see how [in my haste] I made it sound as if he was offering to cut the case. That is not what I'll be doing. He will be cutting the bearing down, not the case. I will likely buy another set of bearings as backup. However, I feel pretty confident in letting the guy that is doing the machine work ensure he's happy with fit and function. Hope that makes sense. My apologies for the confusion. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:06 pm    Post subject: Re: A promise, patience, and persistence - My 1974 Westfalia thread Reply with quote

white74westy wrote:
However, he can only locate bearings that meet my needs, case .020 and crank .010 with an oversized thrust main. He has offered to cut it down to fit. Think I'm going to take him up on it.


Absolutely, absolutely have Rocky fit mains to the case.

100%.

No question.
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