A few questions about my newly-installed 1.6TD

[rsvp]

Hi All,

I posted some of this on the Diesel Vanagon forum, so apologies if you've seen it already.

I just am finishing up a month long installation of a 1.6TD motor and 5 speed transmission in the Phoenix (my 1982 Diesel Westy), after damaging the 1.6na original type motor thanks to a cracked oil fill tube.

the motor is now running, albeit not perfectly happily.

here's the history:

I purchased a mark1 Jetta with a rebuilt hi-performance 1.6td. the motor ran very well, and fast with GTD injectors and a huge intercooler, balanced internals, ceramic coated parts and a Giles pump. I pulled the motor and stored it in my basement... (for a decade... sometimes projects take a while!)

a little later, I bought a wrecked euro import T3 hightop with a JX motor and 5 speed van in AZ an towed it home... mainly for the JX specific parts and rebuilt 5 speed... including a Giles- rebuilt JX pump with LDA

I combined the two, and now have a 1.6TD with the balanced internals, and all the JX specific parts to fit it into the Phoenix.

I have about 100 miles on the install, and am slowly working out the kinks.

I did a compression test, 480, 480, 510, 480

Here's a few issues and questions I now have:

BLUE SMOKE AT IDLE.

I replaced the GTD injectors (they were leaking between the two halves and needed to come out to reseal) with new-ish Bosch made-in-India 155BAR injectors. they lessoned the plumes of blue smoke I was getting originally. I still have blue smoke, just not as bad. I added a pint of Marvel Mystery oil to see if the rings will free up... if that's the issue. I'm monitoring the oil consumption, and will post when I know more.

A SLIGHT MISS AT IDLE..
this is like every 10 seconds or so, the engine goes "blup" … like a gas-powered vehicle misfired... I have not experienced this on any of my other diesels.

TURBO BOOST
my K14 is putting out 10-11LBS of boost. is that considered stock for a JX motor?

WARMER RUNNING MOTER THAN MY 1.6NA

I have an 87C thermostat in the motor now... not sure what is correct. the dash gauge reads 3/4 hot, where my 1.6na ran straight half way(needle over the red light)



WHAT SHOULD RPMS BE FOR THIS MOTOR AT 60MPH?

I have 4:86 R&p ratio, and big tires... 5th seems right no sooner than about 55mph or so.

Thanks for reading, and look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas!

regards,
Steve

[?Waldo?]

Smoke sounds more like air in the fuel than rings. Any leaks? Clear line before and after the pump for easy diagnosis?

Did the gauge temp sensor come with the engine or it is from your prior engine?

87°C thermostat is correct.

Compression is fine.

10-11psi is stock boost pressure for the JX (and all of the other 1.6TD engines).

Big tires and 4.86 R+P might be overly tall.

[bene]

[rsvp]

thanks guys!

to answer your questions:

there's a clear line right before the pump... not much (if any) air. I don't have one after the pump ( I could add that)

I did put my old temp sensor back on that that lowered it TO THE 3/4 MARK (it's an original from VW the one I removed was from Meyle and read 7/8 hot)

I've seen the transmission chart, but I guess I'm looking for what is the ideal RPM's for the Westy at 60 MPH for this motor... (I can adjust the tires to find that, if needed)

thanks again!
Steve

[MarkWard]

You should be able to run that engine with your foot flat on the floor all day long without issue. I believe the rev limit is built into the pump. It becomes more of a noise comfort level for operating rpm. I don't have experience with your particular setup.

My newer diesel sounds and feels happy around 3000 rpm. Redline is probably 3900 rpm, max torque around 2200 rpm. Cruising near max torque rpm, mpg is incredible. Cruising at 3000 rpm, mpg starts to suffer.

Point of reference, the sticker on the 82 diesel vanagon advertised 29 mpg both city and highway. Top speed was about 60 mph.
_________________
☮️

[?Waldo?]

The stock 1.6TD 5-speed came with the 4.8 R+P and stock sized tires. I think the factory did a decent job at the gearing and the 1.6TD engine at stock boost does not have very much extra power for the lower rpms that result from taller tires. That's the basis of my comment that big tires with the 4.86 might be too tall.

The IDI engines are more comfortable revving higher than the TDI engines.
Peak hp on the 1.6TD is @ 4500 rpms. Max rpm is 5,100.

I would lean towards gearing too short over gearing too tall with a 1.6TD.

[old_man]

[?Waldo?]

You could adjust max fuel so that sustained EGTs do not pass your desired EGT limit. I usually do that for 1250 with a pre-turbine probe. That reduces max power, but requires less attention to gauges.

[rsvp]

hi gang,

I'm HOPING to take the Phoenix out on a "minor" test hop today, and go see my son in Purdue (Indiana)… a ~1400 mile round trip.

BUT

my problem of the moment is that my waterpump belt is too loose, and I've removed ALL the shims!

I have several 10 X 643 belts

I've replaced the waterpump belt 3 times, with 2 new ones one old one... hoping to fine one that is a little tighter.

I have a complete extra 2 pulley setup, (off my old 1.6na) and swapped them out just to see if anything would work... no luck.

WTF?!

I'm headed to NAPA to see if I can get a belt slightly smaller than the 643 belt, but not expecting much luck.


ANY thoughts appreciated!

[dave Friday]

Hi rsvp,in the UK there are 3 two belt system sizes,600,625,and 633!
Have a look on this site; Brickwerks.co.uk
Good luck.
_________________
1992 t3 syncro jx 1.6td leisure drive camper van
Now with " sb" engine

[rsvp]

hi Dave,

thanks for that info!

I found belt that's not quite right, but may work until I find something a little better.

I cant understand what would cause the difference in distance between the crank and waterpump pulleys?

I'm leaving early in the morning for Indiana... a 1400 mile round trip... should be interesting!

[rsvp]

UPDATE:

The phoenix made it to Indiana and back... a 1300 mile round trip. It used about a quart of oil, and I didn't have any breakdowns! the extra power from the turbo motor and 5 speed make it MUCH less anemic on hills, and I kept up with traffic, even with a headwind... YAHOO!!!


I do have some more questions:

The water pump belt issue:

Contiitech 10x 643 is the proper size. it sits in the split-V pulley v with no shims in between, and still slips!

can anyone think of why that could happen? (And thanks Dave form UK, but those other belts from Brickwerks are for vans with either power steering or AC)

When cold, the motor stars poorly. it coughs, smokes and fails to stay running on all 4 cylinders. there's terrible smoking for the first 5 mins of running. I've changes the injectors out... still smokes. I've run Diesel Purge through it... still smokes.

thanks All for your help and input!

regards,
Steve

[?Waldo?]

Not to beat a dead horse, but hard cold starts combined with extra smoke for the first few minutes of driving sounds like you are getting air into the injection pump and the fuel is siphoning back to the tank. Even a tiny leak at one of the jumpers between injectors or even a pump main shaft seal that doesn't even leak diesel out can cause that issue and without a clear line after the pump you'll never know aside from the crappy cold starts and extra smoke.

After that, the best I can come up with is a bit more obscure. Are you abso-freaking-lutely sure that the pump is not 180° out from the cam? That will cause ALL of the issues you describe and yet still run reasonably well. The early 1.6 pump sprockets have two correctly sized holes for the timing pin and it is easy to mix that up. It will cause hard cold starts, it will cause extra smoke especially when cold, and it will cause the engine to run generally hotter. It will have markedly better power than a non-turbo engine, though, as you describe. The camplate inside the injection pump could be installed 180° out of time so even with the cam/pump timing correct it could cause all of what you describe.

[MarkWard]

If it's not the waterpump pulley its the crank pulley. We have a 1.9 turbo diesel in here now. At some point it was fitted with a larger alt and has a single belt that runs the waterpump pulley and alternator. The rabbit diesel had a similar setup from memory.

What flange waterpump do you have? Small flange or large? I'm guessing you have a mismatch of parts. Subtle differences through the year. If a smaller belt as mentioned above gets you working, no reason not to follow that advice.
_________________
☮️

[old_man]

[?Waldo?]

The early sprockets that have two symmetrical holes for the pin have a line on the pump side of the sprocket (where it is darn hard to see...) that needs to line up with the top centerline of the pump when the cam is correctly timed for TDC for #1. That takes care of the sprocket. If the camplate inside the injection pump is installed 180° out, it is much harder to tell. If the pump is primed, it is possible to remove the injection lines and with a wrench rotate the pump by hand while watching the delivery valves. If doing it right you'll see a little spritz to show which delivery valve is sending fuel to the injector. Be aware that the delivery valve will drip sometimes at the wrong time and that this test does not work at all on later engines with dual stage injectors that actually do give a little pilot injection 180° out.

With later pump sprockets, VW wisely made the 'wrong' hole larger to avoid that nonsense.

[rsvp]

Again THANKS EVRYONE FOR YOUR HELP!!!!!


Waldo, as far as I can tell, no visual air (or fuel) leaks anywhere... all new return lines, no bubbles through my clear tubing going into the pump. (I'll reinstall a clear line going OUT of the pump to recheck/reconfirm)

I had not thought of the front IP seal... usually in my experience, when that's bad it takes quite a while to even get the motor to fire once.

this IP pulley only has one timing alignment hole. not the like all my other pump pulleys which have two alignment holes. there's the tiny notch/line on the back edge of the pulley that lines up with the centerline on the pump, and the pump bracket, so I ASSUME that's not the issue.

Mark,

I robbed everything off my old 1.6na to confirm that there is something odd is not right. I'm perplexed that there can there be a difference in distance between the centerlines for the crank and waterpump pulleys? I installed a new German brand waterpump and new h2O pump housing when I dropped this motor in the van... any chance the HOUSING could be out of spec by a mm or something like that?

old Man, a assume the different crank pulley on the JX could be for the power steering belt??

thanks again all... I'll keep you updated!

Regards,
steve

[old_man]

[rsvp]

UPDATE:
This morning I set up a transfusion of Diesel Purge, where you disconnect the fuel lines going into and out of the injection pump, and rig two lines from a can of Diesel Purge to the intake of the pump, and another from the pump back to the can of DP. I let the motor run for a a few minuets to be sure it was DP in the pump and injectors, and then shut it off, with the DP in the system to sit all day.

I started the van up this evening, and it went right off... no complaining, just started and idles like it should!

I'll leave the PD in overnight, and tomorrow morning I'll reconnect the proper fuel lined and make sure there's no bubbles going in or out of the system!

Thanks all for your patience on this!
regards,
Steve

[rsvp]

UPDATE:

Hi Gang!

I drove the PHOENIX from MD to Key West Florida and back... with a few side trips here and there. 3100 miles in total!

The new motor ran well, (once warmed up). I didn't have time to chase down the issue with poor performance when cold, and since I drove down there almost without stopping, it wasn't a big issue.

Per Waldo's suggestion, I switched back to my 185/75r 14" Kumho RA08's, and the engine seemed happier than with the big 15" tires I had on there.

The difference between the stock 82 the 83-up engine carrier bars, and 4:86 ring and pinion are AMAZING! you can hold a conversation with the person in the passenger seat, and you can sleep in the back BECAUSE IT'S SO QUIET NOW!!! I morn the utter simplicity of my 1.6na, but holding 60-70mph ALL DAY with ability to conversate really changes the dynamics of roadtrips!

Oil consumption dropped to 1/2 quart per 1200 miles or so, which I assume is normal for a good running 1.6TD.


STILL WORKING ON:

AIR IN SYSTEM

I'll be trying to find the air leak Andrew was mentioning to see if that cures my poor cold start performance. I'm noticing a steady small stream of champagne- sized bubbles EXITING the pump through my newly installed clear tubing.
Is there a way to figure out where that's coming from? I have new injector return lines, and no visible leaks. (this is a low mileage Giles pump, but sat quite a few years. ther's no leaks from the front seal, but it is about ~7 years old.

TIMING

Also I checked the timing on it, and it APPEARS to be too far advanced.

I'm following that wonderfully detailed timing write-up here on thesamba, and it all makes sense (I've done this many times successfully previously). my doubt enters about correctly zero-ing the dial indicator. when I turn the crank backwards from TDC, it hits zero fairly quickly... like you're turning back a clock hand just 2 hours. It seems to be a fairly stable zero- spot... in that you can turn the crank a little more or less, and it stays at the zero spot.

BUT if I keep going counterclockwise PAST that first stable zero spot, the needle will spin back and find another zero spot that is very precise, and only "stays" in the spot for a moment.

Confused, I tried using BOTH zero spots, and bringing the crank clockwise back to TDC, and I'll got two different readings... BOTH way ahead of the 1.00-1.05 recommended for a TD...

let me know if you understand what I'm trying to explain, and have a suggestion. It doesn't seem clear to me in the write-up.

thanks again all!

regards,
Steve