1952 Deluxe

[DSweinhagen]

[j.pickens]

I would surmise that the original samples Jim is talking about had "de-fuzzed" over the years.
_________________
Founder and Chairman Emeritus, ECMSAS
BBX BBXII and BBXXI Long Distance Award Winner

[[email protected]]

i have the complete headliner (removed)and all the parts hidden behind screws, coat hangers . lights or tucked in are all the same without fuzz.
The back has the same pattern as the front . I just don't see how it could have had a fuzz to it and disappeared evenly from everywhere.

btw your headliner looks real real nice.

[sled]

while I do NOT have a late 1951 or 1952 23w deluxe myself, I have to wonder...Do you think they used dramatically different material for the headliner for beetles and buses on the assembly line on the same day? When looking at a late 1951 or early 1952 beetle, do we think that they used different material?

My 1951 beetle with original headliner, has a center section that has very little if any "fuzz" showing on its square-woven substrate pattern, while the material on the B pillars and the horizontal structure above the doors still has all of its "fuzz". So why is one section of material fuzzy while the other section is a more coarse-woven pattern like fine burlap?

a 1952 23w deluxe was considerably more expensive to purchase than a 1952 beetle in 1952, but do we think that a company focused on affordability for the masses (yes even in the early 50's) would use drastically different headliner materials? how about a 1952 standard micro?

anyway, just rambling..
_________________
drive your split.

[fazeka]

[djfordmanjack]

that is crazy about the different headliner cloth. my May 1951 Dlx Split bug definitely had fuzzy stuff. remnants on a 1954 Barndoor Standard roof clip shows fuzzy.
BUT. my (August?) 1951 Std split bug (with small headliner) IIRC had the same style cord cloth as pictured on the last photo on top of the nice old amp.
an all og 53 DLX Samba from a friend definitely has fuzzy headliner.

Maybe this was just a matter of availability at a given time. is that fuzzy stuff in VWs real Mohair (as in camel hair)? That could have been difficult to source every now and then.
_________________
Hotrods, Fords, Veedubs and Triumph Twins !

52 Barndoor DLX Coachbuild project
55 Wolfsburg panel project, og paint Taubenblau L31
62 Dickholmer, custom color Seeblau L360
63 1500 Notch, og paint Rubin Rot L456
67 1500 Käfer, og paint Lotus weiß L282 w/red interior

[DSweinhagen]

I agree with all the thoughts above, which is why I started and ended my headliner post with "I don't know". Because I don't and it's baffling. I don't think they used two different materials on the same car but it sure looks like it sometimes... Why the fuzz would completely wear off one section and not another, I don't understand. But if you're able to take a closer look you can usually find a hidden area that still has fuzz and the backing will be identical. And then you'll see another bus and it's worn off everywhere. Additionally confusing, sometimes they ran the material in different directions... I would guess it all looked the same new, but now that the fuzz wears off it looks like two different materials next to each other as the pattern runs in different directions (usually seen on the skylight section).

Mark has an original headliner he uses as a pattern. It came out of Rick Clark's '53 Deluxe that I did a lot of work on back in the '90s, including removing the headliner. It's one of those that clearly looks like two different materials, but on further inspection it's all the same. Mark has also been around the Hornbecker '52 a bit recently and says it has fuzz in all the unworn areas. That was good enough for us to make a decision and move forward.
_________________
David S

[Mr. OGPaint]

Ex-Steve Wood/ mike hornbecker unrestored Feb 52. View of B-pillar, headliner wrapping B-pillar is visible. Photo taken January 2020.

10/52 Deluxe, Canadian delivery. Recent find w/ worn/tattered original headliner

I don't have much to add to the headliner discussion, but here are some pics of the headliner of a 10/52 deluxe I helped extract recently. Also, 1 good detail pic of the ex-Steve Wood where you can see the headliner wrap around the B-pillar.

I've never seen this material elsewhere in the bus world, other than these 2 deluxe buses from 1952. But, I've been able to work with an original STANDARD ZWITTER BEETLE from 10/52..and the material is an exact match. I saw no NAP or FUZZ or evidence it ever was so on the STANDARD ZWITTER or the 10/52 BD deluxe, and I apologize for the cruddy phone pics...but please observe the "grain" of this material. Both of which I've examined very closely, but both of which had some serious use in their lifetime, but do have a decently high percentage of OG headliner present.

The coarse weave appears much different than the mohair in my 5/52 DELUXE Beetle, and different construction than later bus and beetle mohair headliners I've seen. I wouldn't even call it mohair, its a woven fabric on the Standard Beetle and the 10/52 BD Deluxe

Unfortunately the Steve Wood deluxe (2/52) was tightly locked while displayed at the Peterson Museum, and getting better view or pic of the headliner wasn't possible.

Mark L. has closely worked with the Steve Wood deluxe, and it is definitely the gold standard of originality. Mark L.'s observations should be highly regarded in a case like this.

I have a feeling that our friends from Germany and Europe with surviving Standard Beetles will be very helpful on this subject, as I feel that is likely the type material that was used on deluxe buses from this period.

Beautiful bus!
_________________
https://instagram.com/mr.ogpaint
-
Patrick Hall

[djfordmanjack]

Yes I believe we have a point here.

I am sorry we are spoiling Davids thread and I believe we should really start a new one ? Everett, can you move all headliner related stuff in case ?
For now I will post this here, my old Jan. Std split. That is definitely not fluffy nor Mohair missing, none present even at the cardboard panels that are fed behind the painted pillars. looks like the same stuff MrOGPaint is referring to, a cross weave pattern cloth.

_________________
Hotrods, Fords, Veedubs and Triumph Twins !

52 Barndoor DLX Coachbuild project
55 Wolfsburg panel project, og paint Taubenblau L31
62 Dickholmer, custom color Seeblau L360
63 1500 Notch, og paint Rubin Rot L456
67 1500 Käfer, og paint Lotus weiß L282 w/red interior

[Mr. OGPaint]

Thanks for you pic DJFMJack

Here’s a closeup of the original 10/52 23 window headliner, same material as the zwitter standard beetle I’m working with right now also.
_________________
https://instagram.com/mr.ogpaint
-
Patrick Hall

[marklapriore]

I was gonna write up an ig post for thebusbarn on this topic eventually, but now seems like a good time to throw my two cents out there.

First off, I’ve been paying close attention to the subject of barndoor headliners since the mid 1990s. In that time I’ve been fortunate enough to inspect, in person, in my shop (ie, removing interior panels, peeling back window rubber, looking under rear shelf mats, etc) the original headliners on a number of well known low mileage barndoor deluxes and early standards. Most of which I have samples of.

Before I start, let me just say at this point we are looking at 65-70 year old material that has been exposed to the elements and has dryrotted . It’s tough to look at a 65 year old piece of very unstable fabric and know exactly what it looked like when it was new.

The busses I’m basing my headliner opinions on are:

-AB-51. A Feb of 51 Standard Microbus with 100% original interior and mostly outside original paint. I first saw that bus in person in Germany in 1994. The headliner had a medium full fuzz to it at that time, but it’s since mostly worn off. Parts of the headliner that are hidden (mostly around the rear shelf area door)- are still full fuzz.

-the 1952 Deluxe known as “the Hornbecker “ or “the Woods Deluxe”. 18k+/- original miles, original interior. One of the nicest original barndoor deluxes in the world. I was able to access some headliner in that bus that’s not exposed when I made a new sunroof cover for it in 2019. Every bit of headliner you see on that bus has the fuzz worn off, you’re looking at the warp and weft of the wool weave. It’s very consistent, so it looks original.. but I was able to find headliner hidden from the elements at the rear of the sunroof section. And guess what. fuzz. Not as full as AB-51, but more about that later.

-1953 Deluxe I sold to Rick Clark in 1993. I currently have the complete headliner in my possession that I use as a template when I make bd headliners. This one is complete, and intact, but has seen better days. This material looks exactly like the material in the 52 woods deluxe, fuzz worn off and warp and weft exposed, except it has lots of water damage/staining and tears around the windows. But when you get to the very edge of the material, past where it wrapped around a pillar, past where it was sandwiched in by grey door seal, to the back of the door seal..fuzz.

-1954 Deluxe from Milan Italy. 22k orig kilometers. Probably the nicest barndoor deluxe I’ve had in the shop (sorry 52!!). The headliner on this one has a good amount of fuzz on it, but it also has a weird thing with the material around the skylights and with the sunroof section headliner. It looks to be made out of different material. I don’t think it’s different, I just feel the fuzz has worn off these sections prematurely and for whatever reason the others haven’t, giving it the appearance of two different materials. The majority of material exposed on this bus has medium to full fuzz still on it.

When I talk about fuzz, it’s not a thick pile of fuzz. The way the wool headliner was manufactured was with a warp and weft (weave) of thick strands. Then the surface of that weave has finer strands of the same wool sticking out from it that give it a bit of a “fuzzy” look. Can you see the weave through that fuzz?? On new material? No. On 65 year old material? Well..Over time, the headliner dryrots, and the fuzz blows, brushes, or just falls off, leaving the weave underneath exposed. The new material I use is made exactly the same way as the original was, and if you scrape against the surface with say, a razor blade, it looks exactly the same as 65 year old wool with the fuzz dryrotted off. Well, except the color is still strong because it doesn’t have 60+ years of color fading too.

A few things to note: there is no early and late barndoor deluxe headliner material. 51-52-53-54...it’s all the same material. Early standard microbuses (AB-51 and Dave Sweinhagen’s ex-Steve Wood ‘51 sunroof standard) though, have a different material with a much deeper pile (fuzz) and a finer weave. These two 51 microbus headliners seem to be more of a ivory color, where deluxes seem to be more tan colored. The headliners in the two 51 standards have much heavier fuzz then the 51-54 deluxes. I’ve spoken with my wife about this on occasion (she worked alongside the textile conservator at the Baltimore Museum of Art back in the 90s), and she and I are of the same opinion. All dyes are acidic. The heavier dye used on the deluxe headliners probably made them less stable, and more prone to deteriorating over time. The standard micro headliners might have had a very light dye, or no dye at all, are less acidic, and therefore withstood time much better...but I doubt it. Either way, the material between the two models is night and day.

I have two original coat hook grab handles that show the transition of fuzz to weave extremely well. One is out of the 53 deluxe, one is from a swapmeet. The middle of the grab handles is made from headliner, while the main body of the strap is made from interior panel vinyl. On both of the original grab handles I have, the headliner material fades from fuzzy to woven, exposing the weave that is visible on all the original barndoor deluxe headliners people are referencing on here.


The imported wool broadcloth that is used for barndoor headliners by most shops and restorers these days (at $90 +/- per yard) is made almost identically to original material. It’s the best thing I’ve found to date, and until someone can show me a better material, I will continue to use it. It’s an extremely high quality wool. That being said, if you wrap it tightly around a post, or around the clips of the sunroof opening, and rub the edge..the pile wears off, and what you’re left seeing is the warp and weft of the weave. It looks almost identical to all the 50+ year old worn, original headliners I referenced earlier. Actually, it’ll be interesting to see what this new material looks like in 50-60 years...

I don’t expect anyone to just take my word for it...so here’s pics.

Original material from ‘52 “Hornbecker” deluxe and an earlier specimen, both with a fair amount of the fuzz dryrotted off.

Two original coat hook grab handles, showing fuzz fade to weave.

New material on left, manipulated to match fade to weave on original grab handle on right

Original piece of headliner from AB-51, completely different from bd deluxe material.

_________________
I'm always home.....I'm uncool

[marklapriore]

Also...just found this pic of the Milan deluxe headliner. The lighting shows the fuzz pretty well..

_________________
I'm always home.....I'm uncool

[[email protected]]

i like the fuzz story>so it takes 25 years give or take for the headliner to look nice as I really like the woven look over the fuzz. But I'm still not 100% sold on the fuzz falling off going by my headliner. It's funny but my 52 headliners is still strong and even except fot the mouse holes and water stains. if it where dry rotted I would think it would be weak and falling apart. I wonder if there are any close up pics form the 50's

[rxBusboy]

Damn it Mark, you just made it very difficult to keep this conversation going on the headliners. The speculation was fun.
_________________
I'd rather drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.
The Original Slow Ride Garage
IG: SlowRideGarge

[Mr. OGPaint]

Very compelling post Mark, thanks for sharing
_________________
https://instagram.com/mr.ogpaint
-
Patrick Hall

[djfordmanjack]

Awesome information and sample pics, thank you Mark !

the AB- early headliner cloth backside reminds me a lot of the oval era 'Pünktchen' seat and panel cloth (only that AB- has solid color).

when MrOGPaint posted that pic with the Dlx B post and de-fuzzed lining, it also shows the glass felt channel and it appears to have similar cloth texture. Now we all now those glass felt channels were all fuzzy and they always wear off from rain and sunrays, to the point where only cloth is exposed.

Another thought that comes to mind is comparing in how many different ways buses rust, or the dryrot on seat fabrics/rubber mats. there is everything from heavy, swampy rust to just surface rust and just slightly worn og rubber and vinyl and crumbled to pieces stuff.

What I am saying, headliners might wear off and age very differently in different climates and conditions, which would explain everything from exposed cloth to preserved fuzz and everything inbetween.
_________________
Hotrods, Fords, Veedubs and Triumph Twins !

52 Barndoor DLX Coachbuild project
55 Wolfsburg panel project, og paint Taubenblau L31
62 Dickholmer, custom color Seeblau L360
63 1500 Notch, og paint Rubin Rot L456
67 1500 Käfer, og paint Lotus weiß L282 w/red interior

[marklapriore]

[Scotty]

[marklapriore]

[EA57RHD]

The original headliner on my former 52 standard.

Bus now resides in Japan. Hummm, I wonder what happened to the original interior panels.

_________________
----VW's in my garage----
March 1959 Mango Standard
November 1958 Single Cab
********WANTED********
Whittier Lee Wood VW dealer license plate frame