Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Need help identifying squareback engine.
Forum Index -> Type 3 Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
speedracer89
Samba Member


Joined: July 15, 2015
Posts: 44
Location: West Seneca, NY
speedracer89 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:50 am    Post subject: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

Hello,

I have 1969 Type 3 Squareback that was supposedly a FI and Auto car originally, The car still has the automatic transmission, which I have posted about before.

I was looking at doing some engine upgrades for better drive-ability, and here is where my questions start.

I thought 1969 was suppose to be a DP 1600? This is based of articles I have read, But this car has single port heads with a dual carb conversion. I know the dual carb conversion was a common swap so that does not concern me the single port heads do concern me.

The next thing I noticed was where the engine number was suppose to be on the Type 3 it is stamped MAINS .020. So that tells someone was inside this engine and possibly put better mains in with possibly the 50mm crank.

The only way I know for me really to tell is tear the engine apart which I really don't want to do.

So here are the questions.

Does anyone know if the engine number should be anywhere else? If the engine is a type 1 case I know I will have to take the front fan shroud off to verify.

What are your thoughts on the single port heads? is that true to the year of the car? Or should it be a 1600 DP? Also could this be a 1500 SP engine from factory for the year of the vehicle?

Does anyone else know of a better way of figuring out what is inside this engine with out tearing it apart?

I am just trying to do this without taking the car to much apart as I have a bus on the lift right now I am trying to get done for a show.

Thanks for any help in advance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sjbartnik
Samba Member


Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 4625
Location: Brooklyn
sjbartnik is online now 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

It could be anything.

Mains .020" means that the engine has been rebuilt and the case was align-bored, thus requiring main bearings that are .020" oversize to fit the (now larger) bearing bores in the case.

If the engine number is not stamped on the top of the case near the seam, then it is not originally a Type 3 case. It could be a Type 1 case or it could be a universal replacement case in which case it would likely not have an engine number stamped on it anywhere.

Usually when an engine is rebuilt it is rebuilt as a 1600 as nobody makes 1500 parts anymore. It also could have been built larger with aftermarket parts but there's no way to know without tearing it down and measuring parts.

It is weird that it has single port heads but I don't know when the transition was made from single port to dual port. I believe 1600 single port showed up on the Type 3 in 1966 model year but I'm pretty sure it would have been dual port by 1969 - I believe all the FI cars were dual port and FI started in 1968.

So...you have some sort of frankenstein engine.
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
speedracer89
Samba Member


Joined: July 15, 2015
Posts: 44
Location: West Seneca, NY
speedracer89 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
It could be anything.

Mains .020" means that the engine has been rebuilt and the case was align-bored, thus requiring main bearings that are .020" oversize to fit the (now larger) bearing bores in the case.

If the engine number is not stamped on the top of the case near the seam, then it is not originally a Type 3 case. It could be a Type 1 case or it could be a universal replacement case in which case it would likely not have an engine number stamped on it anywhere.

Usually when an engine is rebuilt it is rebuilt as a 1600 as nobody makes 1500 parts anymore. It also could have been built larger with aftermarket parts but there's no way to know without tearing it down and measuring parts.

It is weird that it has single port heads but I don't know when the transition was made from single port to dual port. I believe 1600 single port showed up on the Type 3 in 1966 model year but I'm pretty sure it would have been dual port by 1969 - I believe all the FI cars were dual port and FI started in 1968.

So...you have some sort of frankenstein engine.


Thanks for the quick reply, you sorta said what I was thinking about this being a Frankenstein engine. So i guess when time permits I will have to tear into this engine to see what I really have. Than I can upgrade to DP heads while I have it apart.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sjbartnik
Samba Member


Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 4625
Location: Brooklyn
sjbartnik is online now 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:43 am    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

Does the case have the normal Type 3 oil fill tube with dipstick or does it have the dipstick on top like a Beetle?
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
speedracer89
Samba Member


Joined: July 15, 2015
Posts: 44
Location: West Seneca, NY
speedracer89 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
Does the case have the normal Type 3 oil fill tube with dipstick or does it have the dipstick on top like a Beetle?


Normal T3 oil fill tube.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sjbartnik
Samba Member


Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 4625
Location: Brooklyn
sjbartnik is online now 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

Likely a universal case then. So no point in pulling the fan housing to look for an engine number.
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
speedracer89
Samba Member


Joined: July 15, 2015
Posts: 44
Location: West Seneca, NY
speedracer89 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
Likely a universal case then. So no point in pulling the fan housing to look for an engine number.


Thanks for the information. I did read if it was rebuilt by VW there would be a recycle symbol and a "D" to indicate it was rebuilt.

The other option is the previous builder could have ground the engine number and replaced it with MAIN .020
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Mike Fisher
Samba Member


Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 16651
Location: Eugene, OR
Mike Fisher is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

Single port heads/intake manifolds are sought after because they are supposed to make more torque!
I wouldn't be worried about changing them to dual port if they're still in good shape.
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bobnotch
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 18897
Location: Kimball, Mi
Bobnotch is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

It's possible that someone ground/machined the engine number off, and stamped it with .020.
Single port heads were used thru 66, with 67 being the first year for the duals. It's not really an issue, unless you want to convert the engine back to FI, in which case you'll need a set of dual port heads. As Mike said, there's a little more torque found in the single port heads, but it's not enough to force a change to dual port heads for a 1 hp gain.
If the engine works and doesn't have any issues, I'd leave it alone and just drive it. Cool
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".


Last edited by Bobnotch on Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
speedracer89
Samba Member


Joined: July 15, 2015
Posts: 44
Location: West Seneca, NY
speedracer89 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:48 am    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

Thanks for the help! I might just leave once I get it running a little better. But I believe the drive-ability issues has to do with old points and no balance tube between the two carbs, because the car acts up once it is warm like very doggy not as much power and almost will have a miss.

The reason I question is because whoever built this car before seemed like they were in a rush. I have already rebuilt the trans because of some bad work that was done previously.

Then I see the motor with the .020 so it make me question if the person knew what they were doing or were just throwing parts at the car.

Another great is example is using the SVDA dizzy on dual carb setup and the 2nd mistake was not hooking up the vacuum to the dizzy. I have seen guys static time these SVDA dizzy before but I personally don't think it works as good that way (I would just swap for a 009). I tried it like that on my dune buggy and had flat spots on acceleration after sitting at a red light for a few minutes. I fixed the problem on my dune buggy by hook up the SVDA correct and timing as it was suppose to be with the SVDA.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bobnotch
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 18897
Location: Kimball, Mi
Bobnotch is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

speedracer89 wrote:
Thanks for the help! I might just leave once I get it running a little better. But I believe the drive-ability issues has to do with old points and no balance tube between the two carbs, because the car acts up once it is warm like very doggy not as much power and almost will have a miss.

The reason I question is because whoever built this car before seemed like they were in a rush. I have already rebuilt the trans because of some bad work that was done previously.

Then I see the motor with the .020 so it make me question if the person knew what they were doing or were just throwing parts at the car.

Another great is example is using the SVDA dizzy on dual carb setup and the 2nd mistake was not hooking up the vacuum to the dizzy. I have seen guys static time these SVDA dizzy before but I personally don't think it works as good that way (I would just swap for a 009). I tried it like that on my dune buggy and had flat spots on acceleration after sitting at a red light for a few minutes. I fixed the problem on my dune buggy by hook up the SVDA correct and timing as it was suppose to be with the SVDA.


Yup, add a balance tub to it, and add a T fitting to the balance tube for the vacuum modulator on the trans. Then re-tune the engine with it in place, and set the timing for the SVDA like it should be.

Short of tearing the engine down, you'll never know how good/bad the engine was built. The short/long block part might have been built by someone knowing what they were doing, and the rest just got tossed on as an after thought, because they were selling it.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
speedracer89
Samba Member


Joined: July 15, 2015
Posts: 44
Location: West Seneca, NY
speedracer89 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
speedracer89 wrote:
Thanks for the help! I might just leave once I get it running a little better. But I believe the drive-ability issues has to do with old points and no balance tube between the two carbs, because the car acts up once it is warm like very doggy not as much power and almost will have a miss.

The reason I question is because whoever built this car before seemed like they were in a rush. I have already rebuilt the trans because of some bad work that was done previously.

Then I see the motor with the .020 so it make me question if the person knew what they were doing or were just throwing parts at the car.

Another great is example is using the SVDA dizzy on dual carb setup and the 2nd mistake was not hooking up the vacuum to the dizzy. I have seen guys static time these SVDA dizzy before but I personally don't think it works as good that way (I would just swap for a 009). I tried it like that on my dune buggy and had flat spots on acceleration after sitting at a red light for a few minutes. I fixed the problem on my dune buggy by hook up the SVDA correct and timing as it was suppose to be with the SVDA.


Yup, add a balance tub to it, and add a T fitting to the balance tube for the vacuum modulator on the trans. Then re-tune the engine with it in place, and set the timing for the SVDA like it should be.

Short of tearing the engine down, you'll never know how good/bad the engine was built. The short/long block part might have been built by someone knowing what they were doing, and the rest just got tossed on as an after thought, because they were selling it.


So you think I should still run the SVDA on a dual carb setup?

I was reading the 009 works better. I personally have never owned any dual carb motors this is our first one. So I am still learning the best configuration. I have both laying around I was going to try them both to see which one has the best results.

I just figure since you mentioned the SVDA I would see what your thoughts were on using that instead of the 009.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bobnotch
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 18897
Location: Kimball, Mi
Bobnotch is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

speedracer89 wrote:

So you think I should still run the SVDA on a dual carb setup?

I was reading the 009 works better. I personally have never owned any dual carb motors this is our first one. So I am still learning the best configuration. I have both laying around I was going to try them both to see which one has the best results.

I just figure since you mentioned the SVDA I would see what your thoughts were on using that instead of the 009.


I would. I've been running an SVDA on my 65 Notch with dual Solex carbs for over 15+ years and love it. It just works. I did run an 009 on it for 4 years too, and it's so much better with the SVDA. I ran an 009 in my Fastback and in my Squareback prior too. I have a spare type 3 engine sitting in my garage set up for dual carbs (Weber ICTs) and an SVDA too.

If you're not sure which you want to run, try them both, and find out which works best for you.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
speedracer89
Samba Member


Joined: July 15, 2015
Posts: 44
Location: West Seneca, NY
speedracer89 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
speedracer89 wrote:

So you think I should still run the SVDA on a dual carb setup?

I was reading the 009 works better. I personally have never owned any dual carb motors this is our first one. So I am still learning the best configuration. I have both laying around I was going to try them both to see which one has the best results.

I just figure since you mentioned the SVDA I would see what your thoughts were on using that instead of the 009.


I would. I've been running an SVDA on my 65 Notch with dual Solex carbs for over 15+ years and love it. It just works. I did run an 009 on it for 4 years too, and it's so much better with the SVDA. I ran an 009 in my Fastback and in my Squareback prior too. I have a spare type 3 engine sitting in my garage set up for dual carbs (Weber ICTs) and an SVDA too.

If you're not sure which you want to run, try them both, and find out which works best for you.


Cool thanks for the heads up, that is what I have on this motor now is dual weber ICTs (I forgot to mention that earlier).

I am going to give both a try to see what happens since I have both laying around. I mean that is the we learn by experience. But I do like hearing that you are able to make a SVDA work with a automatic trans.

I heard a lot of guy complain there just wasn't enough vacuum on a auto dual carb car to make the SVDA work.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sjbartnik
Samba Member


Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 4625
Location: Brooklyn
sjbartnik is online now 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

I would assume it can be done, consider the Type 3 got FI in the USA but in some other markets it remained dual carb, so presuming that the automatic was optional in those other markets, there would have to be dual carb automatic versions that existed.

Granted they are probably pretty rare as those other markets were likely majority manual transmission back then, USA being the big market for automatics.
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ataraxia
Samba Member


Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4078
Location: Illinois
ataraxia is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
I would assume it can be done, consider the Type 3 got FI in the USA but in some other markets it remained dual carb, so presuming that the automatic was optional in those other markets, there would have to be dual carb automatic versions that existed.

Granted they are probably pretty rare as those other markets were likely majority manual transmission back then, USA being the big market for automatics.


Dual carb automatics exist - the hardest part to find for them is the linkage/pivot tower. Specific to the Type 3 automatic.

Pic of the linkage with kickdown switch:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=684536
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
speedracer89
Samba Member


Joined: July 15, 2015
Posts: 44
Location: West Seneca, NY
speedracer89 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
sjbartnik wrote:
I would assume it can be done, consider the Type 3 got FI in the USA but in some other markets it remained dual carb, so presuming that the automatic was optional in those other markets, there would have to be dual carb automatic versions that existed.

Granted they are probably pretty rare as those other markets were likely majority manual transmission back then, USA being the big market for automatics.


Dual carb automatics exist - the hardest part to find for them is the linkage/pivot tower. Specific to the Type 3 automatic.

Pic of the linkage with kickdown switch:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=684536


Yes but according to Mike in that post. Automatic dual carbs were never sold in the USA.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sjbartnik
Samba Member


Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 4625
Location: Brooklyn
sjbartnik is online now 

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

speedracer89 wrote:

Yes but according to Mike in that post. Automatic dual carbs were never sold in the USA.


They were not, but we have the Internet now and it is possible to find/buy parts from other countries. Very Happy
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bobnotch
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 18897
Location: Kimball, Mi
Bobnotch is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: Need help identifying squareback engine. Reply with quote

speedracer89 wrote:
ataraxia wrote:
sjbartnik wrote:
I would assume it can be done, consider the Type 3 got FI in the USA but in some other markets it remained dual carb, so presuming that the automatic was optional in those other markets, there would have to be dual carb automatic versions that existed.

Granted they are probably pretty rare as those other markets were likely majority manual transmission back then, USA being the big market for automatics.


Dual carb automatics exist - the hardest part to find for them is the linkage/pivot tower. Specific to the Type 3 automatic.

Pic of the linkage with kickdown switch:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=684536


Yes but according to Mike in that post. Automatic dual carbs were never sold in the USA.


True, but since it has Weber carbs, you might want to look at how Multi69s set up his kick down switch on his type 4 engined AT Squareback. He has some nice clear pics of it, along with a parts used list.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Type 3 All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB