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Stale Air, Fresh Air Question?
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VW HIPPIE
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:46 pm    Post subject: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

I have a 62 bug, It had a 40 hp, (Stale Air) Now I putting a 1600 sp, (Fresh Air) in it, Question Are these the right heater boxes? They hit the fire wall when putting the engine in, Or do I have to take them off and put engine in, And then put them back on. I know Rookie I am. THANKS
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mukluk
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

They're the correct heat exchangers for a fresh air setup, it's just you're finding the common problem experienced when trying to fit a fresh air engine to a car originally designed for stale air heating -- the fresh air heater boxes (especially the right side) tend to hit the firewall when trying to install or remove the engine. The easiest way to overcome this without trimming or bending sheet metal is to install the heater boxes after bolting the engine in place.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

Your choices are either to hack up the firewall where the heater boxes hit, pull the heater boxes every time you pull and replace the engine or replace the lower firewall panel with one from a fresh air car. I did the latter on a '60 I had and that fixed the problem. It does involve drill out the spot welds and welding the new panel in but is the cleanest way to do it.
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VW HIPPIE
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

Thanks Guys, I thought that was the problem, I never had a 62 and older bug before, Thanks again Very Happy
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rcooled
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

When pulling the 1600 in my '63, the rear corners of the cylinder tin hit the rear bodywork and wouldn't allow the engine to come back far enough for the studs to clear the transmission. Had to pull the shroud and cylinder tins to drop the motor. Removed one heater box too. Don't know why it's such a pain...car shows no evidence that it's ever had a rear-end collision Confused
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'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible (sold)
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

rcooled wrote:
When pulling the 1600 in my '63, the rear corners of the cylinder tin hit the rear bodywork and wouldn't allow the engine to come back far enough for the studs to clear the transmission. Had to pull the shroud and cylinder tins to drop the motor. Removed one heater box too. Don't know why it's such a pain...car shows no evidence that it's ever had a rear-end collision Confused

Fresh air heater boxes are bulkier than stale air up top, so they hit the firewall. Engines with a 69mm throw crank (1300-1600) are roughly half an inch or so wider than 40hp engines, so they fit rather tight in the bay of earlier Bugs designed for the earlier narrower engine. The problems boil down to the simple fact that fresh air and later/larger displacement engines are physically bigger in exterior dimensions: it may not be by much, but it's enough to cause headaches. It's even more fun stuffing a 1300-1600 into a car designed for a 36hp engine because not only was the 36hp narrower, but also the 40hp and newer engines are notably longer.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

They changed the shape of the lower firewall section where the front rubber seal mounts as they changed the type of heater boxes. They first changed it for the '61 model year with the introduction of the 40 horse engine.

This was the shape with the 25hp and 36hp engines with stale air heat.

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Compare that to the stale air 40hp firewall

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They changed it again when they introduced the fresh air heater boxes. It is subtle but they raised the contour up to give additional clearance for the tops of the heater boxes.

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The only way to fix the problem so you don't have to take the heater boxes off and maintain proper air sealing is to change that lower panel with one from a later fresh air car.

While you are at it replace the side trays to give a bit more side clearance.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

mukluk wrote:
rcooled wrote:
When pulling the 1600 in my '63, the rear corners of the cylinder tin hit the rear bodywork and wouldn't allow the engine to come back far enough for the studs to clear the transmission. Had to pull the shroud and cylinder tins to drop the motor. Removed one heater box too. Don't know why it's such a pain...car shows no evidence that it's ever had a rear-end collision Confused

Fresh air heater boxes are bulkier than stale air up top, so they hit the firewall. Engines with a 69mm throw crank (1300-1600) are roughly half an inch or so wider than 40hp engines, so they fit rather tight in the bay of earlier Bugs designed for the earlier narrower engine. The problems boil down to the simple fact that fresh air and later/larger displacement engines are physically bigger in exterior dimensions: it may not be by much, but it's enough to cause headaches. It's even more fun stuffing a 1300-1600 into a car designed for a 36hp engine because not only was the 36hp narrower, but also the 40hp and newer engines are notably longer.


The 36hp and 40hp are the same width. The 40 hp is longer by about 7/8 inch.
The fresh air 36Hp engines from 1963-1965 use the 40 hp heat exchangers and 40hp exhaust muffler. They use a 7/8 aluminum exhaust port spacer on the rear ( the back of the car) of the cylinder head with long studs to make the 36hp the same length as the 40 hp. They also use different tin to make up for that length, and a different intake manifold with longer heat riser tubes to the 40 hp muffler.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

Helfen wrote:
The 36hp and 40hp are the same width.

Reread what I posted, carefully this time, and note that I never said the 40hp was wider than the 36hp.
Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

mukluk wrote:
Helfen wrote:
The 36hp and 40hp are the same width.

Reread what I posted, carefully this time, and note that I never said the 40hp was wider than the 36hp.
Wink


Re read my notes carefully this time; I never said you said they were. I just stated the width was the same and the length was approx. 7/8 inches.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

VW HIPPIE, the easiest method would be to take the HB off your 1600 before installing it. But before you install the engine, run an M8 x 1.25 die over the four head studs at the front of the engine onto which the HB flanges are positioned. You want to be sure that the fresh M8 nuts to hold the HB to the head spin easily. You'll be on your back reaching up and bending your hand to get the nuts (and washers) onto each stud in that limited space.

Apply anti-seize grease to each of the 4 front studs so that the nuts come off easily next time you need to remove the HB and pull the engine.

3 of the 4 front attachment nuts are relatively easy to access with an open-end wrench when the HB is on the engine. The hardest one by far is the upper one on right side. Barely enough room to swing a wrench, unless you get a stubby open end wrench, or a "C" shaped one such as for the front nut on the carburetor.

Do you already have your transmission bellhousing clearanced for the larger diameter flywheel? Engine won't go fully against the transmission unless you clearance.

And then you have the mismatch of the 6V starter's teeth compared to the teeth on the 1500's flywheel.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

Helfen wrote:
Re read my notes carefully this time; I never said you said they were. I just stated the width was the same and the length was approx. 7/8 inches.

If you're merely adding to the overall conversation then there's no need to quote my post in your reply. Quoting the post gives the impression you are trying to make a correction or address an issue with what was previously said.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

mukluk wrote:
Helfen wrote:
Re read my notes carefully this time; I never said you said they were. I just stated the width was the same and the length was approx. 7/8 inches.

If you're merely adding to the overall conversation then there's no need to quote my post in your reply. Quoting the post gives the impression you are trying to make a correction or address an issue with what was previously said.


It was merely a adjunct to your post with additional information 40 hp. vs 36 hp. head length and how the factory made up the difference in length on the 36 hp. fresh air engine.
So sorry I offended you.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:46 am    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

I want to thank everyone for there reply, I have a 1967 transaxel in it now and the right starter, Just was not sure about the heater boxes, Great input, SO one more Question the 40 hp stale heater boxes is that a 2 year only heater box, for a 40 hp, Thanks again
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

Quote:
Question the 40hp stale heater boxes is that a 2 year only heater box?

Pretty much, yes. They are much the same as the 36hp heat exchanger, but the exhaust pipe is longer going to the muffler. The lower engine tin is different for the two engines as well, but they are easily identified by the fact the heat exchanger pipe runs through the 40hp lower tin while the pipe runs along the outside of the 36hp tin.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

The stale air was a two and a half year part. Early '63s still had stale air heat.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

Thanks guys, One more ? Question, Just put the new engine in. All good,But the #2 side valve cover spring hits the body just a little and won't snap closed, What is the fix for that, Should i heat the spring on that one side and bend it , Thanks again
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

Do not heat the valve cover bale, you could end up making it too soft and it won't hold proper tension on the cover, leading to leaks.

If you have the bale above the cover and can't pull it down into place, take the cover back off and pivot the bale to the bottom then try that direction instead.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

Starting in '66 they clearanced the sides of the sheet metal below the bumper brackets to prevent this problem. You can try what was suggested above about removing the bail or maybe a few taps with a hammer along the lower part of the quarter panel where it is interfering will do the trick.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Stale Air, Fresh Air Question? Reply with quote

Thanks again, Here are pics of why I changed engines, all stock 62 ragtop rear ended on freeway, and pic of valve cover spring, Maybe its bent just a little ? Thanks again.
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