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Frederik Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2007 Posts: 578 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:47 pm Post subject: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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Got this "tune Up kit" for the carbs that come with the ww okrasa kit. Thoughts?
Stock 36hp bottom end, 1.25 speedwell rockers, 77mm domed top pistons
Venturi 24mm
Main Jet 115
Air Correction 240
Idle Jet 60
Air Idle bleed 1.0
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JeeWee Samba Member
Joined: February 05, 2011 Posts: 120 Location: Garijp, the Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:48 am Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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My thought is: put it on the dyno and check if this works for you! _________________ 1192CC WW okrasa
48,2 DIN PS (58SAE HP)@4430rpm - 83Nm@3610rpm |
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ntngman Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2006 Posts: 22
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Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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Any updates on the jets? |
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Doug914 Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2009 Posts: 96 Location: Northern New Jersey
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 4:08 am Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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Reviving this thread. Just built pretty a standard Okrasa motor. WW kit and WW cam with 77mm AA cylinders stock crank so 1192cc.
It runs really well except for a lower eng bog and some spitting if you catch the throttle and RPM’s just right under load. Backing off the throttle and re-engaging the accelerator pump seems to help get through it. Runs great once through that range.
I feel it needs some kind of pump adjustment or maybe a jet change that re-engaging the accelerator pump is masking. I also feel the venturi is too big for normal driving when you want more low end torque. I’d like to try 24mm as shown in the first post.
What do you gents run for carb setup who’ve been sucessfull with tuning with a similar setup?
_________________ 1959 Karmann Ghia
1960 Single Cab
1956 Beetle Oval Window
Last edited by Doug914 on Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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PeteSC Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 881
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:56 am Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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What is your timing setting? And are you confident carbs and linkage are well balanced? Mine used to do what yours is doing, increasing the timing helped. I'm at 34 degrees max with an 010. |
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Doug914 Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2009 Posts: 96 Location: Northern New Jersey
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 6:02 am Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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PeteSC wrote: |
What is your timing setting? |
Thanks Pete.
Running 30 deg 019 distrib . Too conservative? Was thinking of trying that. Also need to confirm fuel pressure, but dont expect to see anything there as it overall seems fine otherwise. Carbs are balanced yes _________________ 1959 Karmann Ghia
1960 Single Cab
1956 Beetle Oval Window |
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PeteSC Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 881
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 6:16 am Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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Doug914 wrote: |
PeteSC wrote: |
What is your timing setting? |
Thanks Pete.
Running 30 deg 019 distrib . Too conservative? Was thinking of trying that. Also need to confirm fuel pressure, but dont expect to see anything there as it overall seems fine otherwise. Carbs are balanced yes |
My setup is a little different than yours (69.5x80, stock rockers, WW cam, 35/33 valves, 36 DRLAs), but I could not get a good tune at 28-32 degrees, especially in the lower RPM range. I believe the off idle timing was just too low. As I understand the Okrasa chamber design is very inefficient, so it likes more timing. Maybe go up in one degree increments and see what you get? Mine runs very cool at 34 degrees, with oil temps never going over 180 even in the dog days of summer. I think it could even go higher without pinging, but don't want to push it without the benefit of a dyno (I do have an AFR meter that I use though). I know Erik Thomsen (Big E Deluxe) recently had his dyno tuned by Whitey Worsham....their best results were 37 degrees with an 009 distributor. If you find performance improves with increased timing make sure to check that it's not running lean in the process, which you can correct with jetting.
Last edited by PeteSC on Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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PeteSC Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 881
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 6:24 am Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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I just caught that you're using an 019. I tried that with my initial engine build. The max advance of an 019 comes on very late compared to an 010. My engine really came alive after switching to an 010.
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Doug914 Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2009 Posts: 96 Location: Northern New Jersey
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 6:36 am Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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My 019 was modified with 20 deg total crank timing by A guy here on the Samba. Not sure if that ends up being good or bad but in any case I’ll try bumping the timing and go from there. I really appreciate the feedback Pete! I’ll post back with any results. By the way I followed your build on the KCW site pretty awesome what Franz did! My next build is going to be similar I already had Joe Ruiz do a case for me in preparation for at least a 1400. Maybe 1500 as I have lots of 356 parts cranks etc. _________________ 1959 Karmann Ghia
1960 Single Cab
1956 Beetle Oval Window |
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PeteSC Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 881
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:13 am Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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Happy to help, hope you gets yours sorted. Thanks for the compliment; I'm really happy with the performance (and appearance) of my engine. Joe & Franz exceeded my expectations. It really is a treat to drive, and I'd drive it anywhere with no concerns about reliability.
Regarding the distributor mod - I don't really have enough knowledge about how that works. For these little engines it seems to be important for the advance to come on early in the RPM range for optimal performance, so while the total advance modification to the 019 is helpful, if the curve still follows the graph where it doesn't reach total advance until 3200 rpms then you may still be leaving some performance potential out.
Last edited by PeteSC on Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Doug914 Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2009 Posts: 96 Location: Northern New Jersey
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:03 am Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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I'm going to see if i can swap this 019 for an 010 and go from there. Seems to be the best first step. Thanks again Pete.
Update:
The guy who built my 019 is going to swap me an 010 plus a little more cash. So I'll report back in a week or so. _________________ 1959 Karmann Ghia
1960 Single Cab
1956 Beetle Oval Window |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2015 Posts: 715 Location: Rialto. CA
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:17 am Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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Also to remember these solex 32 carbs from wolfsburg west ..tend to have problems with shafts/ throttle bodys who ever machines these for wolfsburg west ain't no good at it ...this could also be the problem to when trying to tune it...those solex 32 repop carbs are not 100% ready out of the box ..they have wrong jets ,wrong venturi, throttle bushing leaks...joe ruiz rebuilds them to the oem okrasa specs ... so keep the look out on those carbs also as well ...everyone thinks oh there 100% new I won't have problems and than they find out that there not .... |
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Doug914 Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2009 Posts: 96 Location: Northern New Jersey
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:54 am Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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Thanks Jerry.
Well my first suspicion was carb and jetting, venturi size. Yes I’ve seen the various forum posts about throttle shafts. Mine felt tight. After making sure i have the proper distributor and fuel pressure, I’ll move onto the carbs. I also think I’ll make some 24mm venturi’s in my lathe. No matter what, i feel me and the engine will be happier in normal street driving with a small venturi. _________________ 1959 Karmann Ghia
1960 Single Cab
1956 Beetle Oval Window |
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Doug914 Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2009 Posts: 96 Location: Northern New Jersey
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:52 am Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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Quick update. Bumping the 019 timing 7 degrees and turning the accelerator pumps in 4 turns on the nut, completely got rid of the bog. So obviously these Okrasa motors are sensitive to the initial timing as everyone says. I’m guessing the 010 will be an even bigger improvement with how soon it comes in. _________________ 1959 Karmann Ghia
1960 Single Cab
1956 Beetle Oval Window |
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PeteSC Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 881
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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Glad it sounds like it resolved.
However 7 degrees is a pretty big jump from 30. As mentioned earlier another Samba member (Erik) got there by way of a dyno, and making incremental changes along the way. In order to run with that much advance he also drilled out the main jet to supply more fuel, and is using an 009. If I were in your shoes I'd try incremental changes, say driving for a bit a 32 or 34 degrees then slowly going up from there (if you even need to). Maybe it can handle the 37, who knows, but it would be a shame to find it runs hot with that much advance. An AFR meter helps tremendously. |
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Doug914 Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2009 Posts: 96 Location: Northern New Jersey
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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Im 35-36 total. What I thought was 30 in my previous statement really was like 28 to 29. Anyways I think it confirmed most of it was timing as you suspected. I’ll put the 010 in when I get it and set it at 34 total and see how it goes . thanks again Pete . _________________ 1959 Karmann Ghia
1960 Single Cab
1956 Beetle Oval Window |
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Big_E_Deluxe Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2013 Posts: 261 Location: Charlotte, NC
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Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 10:50 am Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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Hoping I can help here...
Last year I was able to put my 1397cc (Mr. Okrasa built) Wolfsburg West Okrasa kit with dual Zenith NDIX carbs on an engine dyno. You can checkout my build thread below for more info.
We found that the engine liked a lot of advance 36-38 degrees regardless of distributor. The 010 was ok, but peak torque was brief and came on late with the 010. Bosch 010 was rebuilt by Glenn Ring, so it was in good working order. We could have left the engine as is, but we did an experiment and mounted up a German 009. Torque numbers came on sooner and lasted much longer with the 009 vs 010. The dyno numbers do not lie. The engine ran better with the 009. Also, we found 38 degrees of timing was the sweet spot for us. Can't say if it would be the same for your setup or anyone else.
Engine runs cool and never skips a beat.
(010 in picture)
_________________ Erik
1958 VW Beetle - "Max": https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=
1959 VW Bus - "Hans" - Double Door Panel (sold): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746927
2014 Porsche 991.1 Carrera S |
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Doug914 Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2009 Posts: 96 Location: Northern New Jersey
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Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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Thanks Eric! Nice build thread. I have at least 5 009 distributors. All Brazil made. I had seen others say the german 009 worked well. But currently it’s running Fine on the 019 with total timing at 35-36. I have about 60 miles on it. Plugs look good. It may not be at peak power across the board with this distributor, but its smooth now, which is my main goal. The new 010 will go in when i receive it.
Btw we have similar ideas (and colors) for our build. Here’s my just finished 56’ oval with this Okrasa motor , and porsche 356B brakes. Wheels are 15x4.5” front and 15x 5.5” rear. Tires are 175/65 front and 195/60 rear
_________________ 1959 Karmann Ghia
1960 Single Cab
1956 Beetle Oval Window |
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PeteSC Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 881
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Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:14 am Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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Big_E_Deluxe wrote: |
Hoping I can help here...
Last year I was able to put my 1397cc (Mr. Okrasa built) Wolfsburg West Okrasa kit with dual Zenith NDIX carbs on an engine dyno. You can checkout my build thread below for more info.
We found that the engine liked a lot of advance 36-38 degrees regardless of distributor. The 010 was ok, but peak torque was brief and came on late with the 010. Bosch 010 was rebuilt by Glenn Ring, so it was in good working order. We could have left the engine as is, but we did an experiment and mounted up a German 009. Torque numbers came on sooner and lasted much longer with the 009 vs 010. The dyno numbers do not lie. The engine ran better with the 009. Also, we found 38 degrees of timing was the sweet spot for us. Can't say if it would be the same for your setup or anyone else.
Engine runs cool and never skips a beat.
(010 in picture)
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Erik's got a beauty of an engine.
Before committing to a WW/Okrasa 36hp build I researched the thread linked below. Read the posts from Splitpile on pages 8 & 9; it's interesting that he found the same result that Whitey did on Erik's engine (an 009 performing best and between 35-38 degrees max advance with any distributor) 12 years ago. Makes me wonder why this doesn't become a baseline of sorts for these builds, but I suppose it's just hard to overcome the "28-32 degrees max" gospel along with the "010 is correct vintage for the Okrasa" mindsets.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4493521&highlight=advance#4493521 |
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Doug914 Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2009 Posts: 96 Location: Northern New Jersey
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Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:11 am Post subject: Re: WW okrasa carb jetting |
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Yeah I read that thread recently while researching all this. And there are plenty of german 009 in the classifieds. Might grab one of those too that need a little love. I like experimenting _________________ 1959 Karmann Ghia
1960 Single Cab
1956 Beetle Oval Window |
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