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Milling?/What do i need to get started?
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Chickensoup
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

Ok, next question... oh, and before i start i just want you all to know that i really appreciate your guys help in all. But what is this attachment along with the cutter that is being used. I checked out that channel that was recommended and it really helps. But anyways i took a screen shot. It looks similar to Madoks modified boring tool.


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Many thanks
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

This is probably a modified boring tool or ones made from scratch.

If you notice in your pics, that's two different cutters. Most vw machine shops will have a whole wall full of different cutters for all the cuts.. this way they can grab the one they need for any particular job.

In the pics above, one cutter is setup to cut the case hole for a certain size cyl, the other is setup to face or deck the case holes where the cyls will seat.

As said, automatic indexing boring/facing tool is best for heads. It will make a very small cut and automatically advance the cutting tool at a steady rate. I have used the rocky Jennings style in a mill.. it will get the job done, but its a huge cut all at once, and needs to be very sharp to consistently make a smooth cut.

Now that you have a machine to play with, start looking for local auctions like machine shops and garages. That's where you will score the best tooling cheap.
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modok
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:00 pm    Post subject: Re: What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

I'd guess a basic 3/4 shank flycutter, with a lathe tool in it.
Not as deluxe as my contraption but works exactly the same.

flycutters are usually shop made since they are so simple to make.
Buy a cheap mt3 arbor, weld a chunk of steel to the end, mill a slot in it.... tap a few set screw holes, and there it is. The OD and bottom can be trimmed IN the mill, using the mill as a lathe.

I see on ebay there is also a deluxe 60mm made in india boring head for mt3, for a whole 60$ I'd go for that one. Biggest tool you can fit in the hole is the best one for sure. Easier to trim it off than add it on.

in the picture here I threw in a flycutter I made from a 10$ reject arbor with a chunk of crankshaft welded on. Most hold the tool at a 30 degree angle, this makes it easier to sharpen the tool, but it's just for making flat surfaces not counterbores. For counterbores you want to hold the tool exactly 90 degrees to the spindle so the depth doesn't change when you adjust the size.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I was going to make a berg cutter out of that other chunk of crankshaft pictured with the bolt in it, but I never finished that project. instead I thought of BETTER ways Wink
ALWAYS thinking about better ways to do the job. With the berg cutter you set it for ONE size, ok great. But to do all the sizes have to collect many of them. Then you get a corvair, then a porsche 911, then a type-4, then a wisconsin, ect....... I prefer one tool to do many jobs, no space for special one job only tools.
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Chickensoup
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

ok, so it seems im gonna jeep the questions truckin so bear w/ me please Smile so when you mentioned that you prefer the lathe tool over the round style, are you talking about this type?
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these seem ok to me as far as just getting started but Madok's statements are pretty convincing Very Happy

also, what exactly are those lathe cutters called? and can i buy and adapter so i wouldnt have to modify a standard boring head?

thank you
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modok
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

Thing is if you want to use brazed carbide....you need to be able to sharpen it.
meaning, you need a grinder with a green wheel and a diamond wheel. otherwise you need to go with inserts.

Why the square tool?
in basic terms.....doing heads we're talking about boring a blind hole with a flat bottom.
if you stick a round tool out the side of the boring head you can't go all the way to the bottom, with mine you can.

using the boring head in the usual way, the tools hanging out the bottom, you have your choice of two holes, and in my experience, one is too big and the other is too small.
With the square tool in the slot, you can extend it out ANY odd amount needed. Which is great.

those round boring bars are best for boring small holes, say, less than 3"
And they are too long....too wobbly, long for boring DEEP holes. Should be shortened to only as long as necessary, which in this case, is barely an inch. you can buy a briring bar, and shorten it....but
check out
https://www.mesatool.com/
i was darn tempted to order one.... then realized that that's stupid, just cut a groove in the boring head and run a square tool. So I did.

There are special carbide inserts for aluminum, polished and ground far better than I could ever do, and I was interested to SEE how nice of a job could be done if I used one of those. But I never got that far yet. Didn't get INTO insert tools...because the insert tools seem to come in two levels of quality, garbage and too expensive. I'm in the garbage territory of finance, so I stick to brazed tools, but I can sharpen them.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

The OP definitely needs to invest in some text books. I was fortunate to be gifted several from a buddy whose son bombed out of Tech School. I have bought some others specific to gunsmithing some of which had some good general machine shop info.

The top book written by the fiatnutz / JO EL fellow has a ton of good info about sharpening bits, etc.

The lower one, Machine Tool Practices, is open to the threading pages whenever I am threading something which is usually a rifle bbl.

You can find these books cheap on Ebay.

You can get some good practice working on stuff to use around the shop. I first practiced internal and external threading using Delrin. You don't need lube and you aren't picking swarf out of your skin.

The white section of Delrin in the lower pic is internally threaded to fit a rifle bbl and allows you to measure down to the case to check the depth of the chamber when reaming.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:58 pm    Post subject: Re: What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

yes, i agree with you on the text books, ive also been watching lots of youtube videos to get started. Here, i have a copy of an owners manual for my mill. here are the specs as well as the vertical head adapter as well as the vice i own.

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Chickensoup
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

also, are these considered round cutters?? they look nice and the price seems right? https://www.mesatool.com/boring-head-accessories


are these bits replaceable? the triangle part?

thank you
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

Yes the carbide inserts are replaceable, no sharpening needed.

maybe
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-91-STGCL-0808H09-Inde...SwL35cj0Sb
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

For a lot of the stuff I was doing High Speed Steel gave better results. This was mostly stainless steel and ferrous rifle bbls. With carbide you have to be taking off a lot of stock. You can't take off a half a thou with carbide in my experience. It just rubs. HSS will zip off incredibly tiny amounts IF you figure out the sharpening part of the equation. Especially on the threads on a rifle bbl HSS was important. Sometimes you would make the last cut without advancing the cross slide. The HSS bit would take off this tiny bit of metal and now the receiver would thread onto the new bbl thread like you wanted.

I have very little experience in working alum on the lathe but have worked it quite a bit on the mill. No experience with magnesium.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:05 am    Post subject: Re: What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

Like Modak said,
1. Facing head is the best, otherwise just a flat bottom tool may leave a poor finish, AND if it's not perfectly ground flat,and installed in holder perfect, say plus or minus 1 degree the surface you cut may be out .001 or so, say across the width of a case deck, either high or low across deck on inside at bore or outside, 1 deg. equals .0011 across 1/16 for example. typ. deck width, in plain terms won't be flat, don't seem like much, but a big deal when trying to seal.

2. Make sure when you install vert. head it is square with table,within .001, both with quill in and out, you can prob. u tube this procedure (tramming the head) you will need a dial TEST indicator and some sort of holder. Otherwise case decks and head decks will be tilted.

3. I would suggest HSS tools until you learn more, carbide is more brittle and hard to sharpen, also you need to put a small radius on the tip so as to not leave a sharp corner in both heads and case bores, this is where carbide inserts shine they come with .015,.03, and other tip radius's, I like Everede Tool Company, and Criterion for boring tools, Criterion was bought out tho, not sure of new name.
Red tips on 2 b bars are HSS inserts u can sharpen as needed only a couple $ each, carb inserts are more and u have to by in lots of 10 generally. however 1 may come with bars sometimes.
Top bar would be used for facing typically, other 2 for boring hole thru. Find a tool/die/moldmaker that's retired to help you, buy him dinner or favorite beverage !


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Chickensoup
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

Sorry, its been a while, i was up north for the weekend. Anyways, so if i used this,

https://www.mesatool.com/boring-head-accessories

And...


https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trk...acing+head

This... what blade or size blade would i be looking for plus where can i get an HSS blade sharpened or can i do it myself? Also, can the Mesa tool do everything that a modified racing head can with a lathe cutter?

Thanks
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modok
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

Actually after thinking about it
the Mesa tool stuff....no.
here's the problem.
They do not say what range of size you can bore with the special attachmnets,
They don't say what the face angle of the tool IS. It could be 1 degree, three degrees, 5 degrees??

If you put this in a 3" or 4" automatic facing head, then it would be a sure thing.
https://www.mesatool.com/product-page/3-4-x-1-1-8-step-boring-bar-1
But if the angle of the dangle on it might be wrong to use a plain boring head and produce a flat surface.
If you listen to everybody here.....we're pretty much all agreeing that the automatic facing head is best way to do heads.

I don't want to lead you astray here, but I think your on the right track far as.... any way you do it you have to choose what kind of tool to use, HHS, brazed, or insert. boring heads and flycutters use the same tools as a lathe, it's getting into a specific category of OLD fashioned machining.

HSS is basically the same as a drill bit.
HSS you just grind it to shape, although to produce the correct angles freehand is some degree of talent and luck. It would be best to have a grinder with a table on it, the table can be set at a particular angle.

Another way to do it would be use the milling machine to shape the HHS bit, then the grinder to finish the job. I had a guy on youtube ask why not just MILL the HSS cutter to shape? At first I thought that's the most stupid comment....but, wait, actually.... probably in the past 10-20 years or so, fancy carbide end mills that CAN easily cut high speed steel are available and it almost makes sense. Tho to make smooth surfaces and sharp corners it will still need to be finished by grinding/honing/lapping ect.

Brazed tools are basically just the same, except you need special grinding wheels. I grind carbide freehand, on a 6" 100grit resin bond face wheel I got from Russia for 40$, mounted to some motor I just had. but..... I'm nuts. If the angle of that mesa tool attachment was wrong I'd just re-grind it until it was right. the whole idea is you don't have to grind it but...... Laughing Oh well.

The insert tooling is very common now, however very confusing, and of course not really designed to go in an old fashioned boring head.
Tho this is where I feel there is potential. if only there was a way to modify a insert toolholder to the right angle and size, and modify the boring head so they fit together.....
You'd need a machine that can cut flat surfaces and grooves in hardened steel.
Called a milling machine. Wink
3/8 carbide end mill.

Seems the most practical approach GIVEN the state of the world, crazy as it is.
Sorry for the confusion, but, it's like.....nearly 100 years of technology of all kinds FLOATING about. Why the world is how it is.... it doesn't all make sense.
You have SOME people doing machining like it's still 1975, and that's ok, but, there have been advances....
others trying to machine a brake disk or a cylinder heads on a CNC milling machine, which is equally wrong tool for the job, ,but it's all they know. You can get the BEST of old and new, is even better.

DARN IT. that's a long rant
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Chickensoup
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:24 am    Post subject: Re: Milling?/What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

Ok, here’s what I’m understanding..

1. I could use either an automatic or a universal boring head but, automatics are superior because they auto feed the amount you want to take off?
2. Old style lathe cutters are better because they can be sharpened, are cheap, can fit in holes better, and look cool? Where can i find them?
3. I need books, lots of em. In fact, i just put some on hold from the library.


But... why would i want to modify an expensive chandlers duplex or something of the sort to accept lathe tools? Would it be wiser to use a universal type and have a friend modify that?

Edit- so, would this be an appropriate tool for boring the ID of a hole?

https://www.amazon.com/AR8-Carbide-Tipped-Tool-Pcs/dp/B00E5GVJ0K

Oh, and what does the AR8 c5/c6 mean?


Thanks
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: Milling?/What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

Boring out holes is easy, no problem. What is hard is facing a surface flat at the bottom of the hole.


THe automatic facing head expands say, .004" each revolution, so it's only cutting .004" of material at any given time. Very low forces involved.

With a normal boring head, to cut the head surface deeper .004" at a time, you'd have to take about 250 cuts. Laughing

OR have a boring head and tool that is STRONG enough to take it in 2-4 cuts. I mounted the tool right in the boring head to make it stronger, and reduce flex.

AR8 c6

A is shape, straight
R is right hand
8 is size, in 16ths 8/16 so 1/2" square


c6 is grade of carbide, c2 for iron and aluminum, c6 for harder materials
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:56 am    Post subject: Re: Milling?/What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

I am also a non-formally-trained machinist hack, and made two little things that have really helped me machine VW stuff on my mill with no DRO and no quill stop.

First, I had two parallels rough cut for me, to prop a case up without removing the studs. I had the top and bottom surface ground square and to the same heights.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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Also, what I call my "flydicator" which is a fly cutter head modified to be a spigot facing tool with brazed carbide, and ALSO modified to house my test indicator to easily sweep into the center of holes without taking the cutter out and losing my vertical position

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


These make doing this quite a painless task.

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Happy milling!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Milling?/What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

modok wrote:
Boring out holes is easy, no problem. What is hard is facing a surface flat at the bottom of the hole.


THe automatic facing head expands say, .004" each revolution, so it's only cutting .004" of material at any given time. Very low forces involved.

With a normal boring head, to cut the head surface deeper .004" at a time, you'd have to take about 250 cuts. Laughing

OR have a boring head and tool that is STRONG enough to take it in 2-4 cuts. I mounted the tool right in the boring head to make it stronger, and reduce flex.

AR8 c6

A is shape, straight
R is right hand
8 is size, in 16ths 8/16 so 1/2" square


c6 is grade of carbide, c2 for iron and aluminum, c6 for harder materials


I use a CNC macine with a kaiser head, easy as 3,14

i sometimes use circular motion for bigger holes, i'll see if i can dig up some vids of case cutting @ 1150 RPM circular milling, single cut from 90 to 97mm.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Milling?/What do i need to get started? Reply with quote


Link

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3 million rpm? Well there's your problem! No wonder it blew up!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Milling?/What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

hobbybob517 wrote:

Link


That looks crazy expensive Very Happy Did the finish turn out well? Cool tho
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Milling?/What do i need to get started? Reply with quote

Chickensoup wrote:
hobbybob517 wrote:

Link


That looks crazy expensive Very Happy Did the finish turn out well? Cool tho


this one is not so bad , i use Kaiser cutting head upwards of 13K €

the finish is ultimate, tolerance within 0.005 mm
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