Geometry and is actual ratio too high

[ken63]

Been working on my 2180 build for a while and recently got to test fitting my rockers and setting geometry. Cam is Web 163 and rockers are new Empi 1.25:1. I've read through most of the geometry threads and have had the rockers shaved down about .060 to get the geometry to about where I need it. When I first mocked up the short block I checked the cam lift at the lifter and it measured right at .384 (basically right on spec.). Total lift with my new rockers (blocks shaved .060 and with adjustment screws in only about 1/2 turn) is about .543, which brings the rocker arm ratio to about 1.41. Even without dropping the rockers down .060, the ratio measured about 1.37 (which seems higher than I've read is normal for this style rockers). Two questions: Does the geometry look ok? Is the ratio too high for my cam?

Zero Lift:

Half Lift:

Full Lift:

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[mark tucker]

to me from hear it looks like the arms need to go down a little more. you do not want the end of the rocker foot running off the lash cap at total lift. is that a oe style pushrod?? if it is that may be the issue. or part of it. you have to use a ball end type pushrod. not just round on the very end like a oe rod is. Ive seen some pushrod kits come with oe style and some with a effing ground down allen head bolt.....how fucking stupid.. I like my adjusters a max of 1/4 turn out. I also profile the rockers and make the ends flat most are not and the adjuster will not go up due to the extra poop hanging off the rocker. Ive not used those empis, they look a bit diferent than the ones I used.witch were like the bugpoop,koolteck.gsc &other knockoffs. also lowering the rocker usually results in a lower ratio..but a faster ratio. as for too much ratio for the cam, the cam dont care, nore does it know what it is attached to. but the springs do. as well as keeper to guide clearance. they could be a slightly different ratio due too the new style. thus you always check the real lift not the meth lift ( card spec x posted ratio lift)

[ken63]

Thanks Mark. I can see how using a stock style pushrod end could give bad readings. I just used what I had available and made my own adjustable pushrod. I guess I will have to see about getting/making something that uses the ball ends instead and re-evaluate.
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[modok]

Empi evidently copied a scat rocker, which is why it's behaving the same as a scat rocker.
Being progressive ratio, the more you lower them, the higher the ratio.

I met a guy who has stated that digressive ratio rocker is better. Very interesting idea.

Need to discuss that more in depth, see what he's thinking, if that's just with roller cams or in all cases.

[jeffrey8164]

Maybe it’s the camera angle but the half lift doesn’t look right to me.
Too bad you already have your pushrods. I think you have new ones in your future.
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[ken63]

You can only tell in the half-lift picture, but it is just an adjustable pushrod. I haven't cut the new ones yet. It is at half lift. But your right, the angle doesn't make it easy to tell.

I ordered an adjustable pushrod that has the proper ball end and will recheck the ratio again once I have it.
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[mark tucker]

you can modify the oe style pushrod ends to work , just put in lathe and make the proper under cuts so there is no binding at low&or full lift.

[ken63]

Yeah, thanks Mark. Unfortunately, my shop is a shed and my machining tools consist of a bench grinder, die grinders, and other hand tools
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[Dougy Dee]

Sharpie the top of the lashcap and rotate through several cycles. The witness marks left behind should wipe across the center of the cap.
Keep an eye on your pushrod to make sure it is vertical to cup at half lift.

[George Wells]

Is it possible you were sold 1.4's? I don't think the Web 163 is made for 1.4's. I know they say you can use it with 1.25's.

[ken63]

Thanks all. Before anything else, I will recheck the total lift at the valve once I get the proper adjustable rocker with ball end to ensure I'm not getting a false reading.

At my current rocker shaft height (lowered .060"), the plane of the lash cap seems to be cutting through the centerline of the rocker shaft. I know my pictures aren't at a good angle to see this. However, I agree that the pads are near the top side of the lash caps (not as centered as they should be). I will validate all that and correct it after I get the proper lift measurements.
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[74 Thing]

Looks like 1.4 rockers to me with long arms.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1621168

[KROC]

Black coloured end caps are usually "considered" the 1.25's although they are always more like 1.33 or higher depending on which heads they are bolted to.

[74 Thing]

Good information to know. Thanks.

I was wrong-they just lift more than advertised.