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pburkeame Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2018 Posts: 42 Location: British Columbia
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Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:03 pm Post subject: Big plume of smoke. |
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I’m in the process of getting a 1987 Vanagon on the road and it’s been an ordeal. It’s been a year and a half project so far. The latest of a long list of problems is a huge plume of smoke which is emitted from the exhaust on occasion. When I say big, I mean big. So big in fact that a lady ran on to someone’s lawn when I passed by to get away from the smoke. It was kind of funny actually. I can’t say what kind of smoke it is. I think it’s oil smoke and not coolant. One thing I did notice is that it seems to only happen when I turn left. It does not seem to happen when I turn right. Any ideas? |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4772 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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3 things cause INTERMITTENT big plumes of smoke...
- oil. possible diluted, when was your last oil change? high oil levels will also do this.
- coolant. when you see the plume, stop, and physically run into it. does it smell sweet? if so, coolant. fire ring gasket issues.
- brake fluid. great clouds of white smoke! the path would be a master cylinder leaking into the brake booster then getting sucked via the vacuum line into the intake manifold. used to pour brake fluid into the carb intake of our rototiller as kid just to make the smoke clouds. great fun. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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RoryGirl Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016 Posts: 783 Location: WestWorld Nanaimo BC
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jlrftype7 Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018 Posts: 3576 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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Keep the oil level between the 2 marks on your Dipstick.
Filling the engine full to the top mark can cause oil burning that you don’t see with a slightly lower oil level.
Really check the Breather Tower/ Crankcase breather, they go bad internally.
New ones are available and you’ll need a new o-ring that seals the bottom of the tower to the engine to go with it. _________________ '68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6532 Location: Westfalia, Earth
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Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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^^^ This is exactly what I was going to say ^^^
We had an oil breather (tower) go bad once. In our case though, it would build up crankcase pressure on long downhills then WHAM, a UGE plume of oil smoke would bellow out like a mushroom cloud (blue in color, always) ((if only oil)).
It happened maybe four times before replacement (a used one). I do know the oil was overfilled a little one particular time when I thought the dipstick marks were a quart apart. I believe it's more like a pint.
I don't quite understand the process but the van almost stalled after this -- though during that time period the spark plugs would load up with fuel on long downhills anyway (possible vacuum leak).
Edit: Thanks for the reference to "new towers available," Jlr -- I thought they were long NLA.
Here's a link for those interested:
https://www.vancafe.com/Vanagon-Breather-System-s/2915.htm
And, Hello Vashon! 😎 _________________ ‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman
Last edited by E1 on Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:45 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Vashon Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2012 Posts: 200 Location: Vashon Island
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Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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blue smoke?white smoke? blue smoke not good. white smoke, maybe the catalytic converter . Had mine go out in grand style. I looked like mad max in a crop duster. |
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E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6532 Location: Westfalia, Earth
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Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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Vashon wrote: |
blue smoke?white smoke? blue smoke not good. white smoke, maybe the catalytic converter . Had mine go out in grand style. I looked like mad max in a crop duster. |
Almost unbelievably, I found actual footage of your catalytic breakdown:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge0rWxGedok _________________ ‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman |
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Vashon Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2012 Posts: 200 Location: Vashon Island
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Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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Yaa !that be me in the vanagoplane . except the crash part . That was a stunt double. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50338
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Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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A valve guide that is loose in the head will cause white smoke for some reason and it will be worse when turning one direction verses the other. |
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pburkeame Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2018 Posts: 42 Location: British Columbia
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Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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Ok, when running with low oil, it will run with no oil plume. I topped up the oil and it started smoking out the exhaust to beat heck. I pulled the #1 and #2 plugs and the #2 plug was dry and #2 was wet with oil. It all makes sense now. When I turned to the left the oil would slosh over to right side of the engine. My question is in this case what would be the most likely entry point for so muck oil? The valves or the piston rings? Thanks in advance. |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7466 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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pburkeame wrote: |
Ok, when running with low oil, it will run with no oil plume. I topped up the oil and it started smoking out the exhaust to beat heck. I pulled the #1 and #2 plugs and the #2 plug was dry and #2 was wet with oil. It all makes sense now. When I turned to the left the oil would slosh over to right side of the engine. My question is in this case what would be the most likely entry point for so muck oil? The valves or the piston rings? Thanks in advance. |
Oil will enter the combustion chamber via valve guides, esp. on deceleration (at least on carb motor, carb closes, the piston sucks whereever it can, loose valve guides allow oil through to burn in the combustion chamberj.
Oil sloshing in the sump and during turns leaking through the rings is another possibility.
Your motor needs a leak-down test.
Regardless, boxer motors tend to use all the topped-up oil until they find equilibrium, i.e. they'll tell you how full they prefer to be, it's usually no more than halfway between the fill marks. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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Ahwahnee Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010 Posts: 9798 Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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jimf909 wrote: |
...they'll tell you how full they prefer to be, it's usually no more than halfway between the fill marks. |
My dipstick...
The arrows point to the factory marks but there is a third notch which I added... slightly below midway. I never fill above that mark.
This may mean that I have to check the oil more often but really should be doing that anyway (e.g. every day on a long trip). |
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pburkeame Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2018 Posts: 42 Location: British Columbia
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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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I’ll drain and refill to the lower mark for now.
I did a compression check and it was 95 psi for 1 and 2 with a cold engine. I’m kinda ruling out the piston rings. My question now is how does oil lubricate the valves? Does oil splash around in the valve cover or through the rockers? Thanks. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50338
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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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pburkeame wrote: |
I’ll drain and refill to the lower mark for now.
I did a compression check and it was 95 psi for 1 and 2 with a cold engine. I’m kinda ruling out the piston rings. My question now is how does oil lubricate the valves? Does oil splash around in the valve cover or through the rockers? Thanks. |
Oil comes up through the pushrods from the lifters and then moves through small grooves and drillings in the rockers. |
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pburkeame Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2018 Posts: 42 Location: British Columbia
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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Doing further troubleshooting, I pulled the intake pipe from the #1 and #2 and I noticed a brass coloured tube around the intake valve stem that was loose. I think this may have some bearing on the excess exhaust smoking. I also noticed some oil around the spark plug. Any input would be appreciated, thanks. _________________ 1987 Vanagon Syncro, Manual
1987 Vanagon 2WD, Automatic
1986 DOKA Syncro, Manual
1980 Westphalia, 2WD, Manual (Under Construction) |
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borninabus Samba R&D Dept.
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 4536 Location: Arizona Highways
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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that loose "brass tube" is a valve guide and it is allowing oil from the rocker box to get sucked into the combustion process.
continuing to drive it could cause severe damage if the valve comes loose!!
time to pull the head(s) _________________ 88 Van WBX, A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T - 2012 Touareg TDI Sport |
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tencentlife Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006 Posts: 10077 Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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Yup, intake valve guide has come loose. Good detective work on the OP's part. Do not operate the engine any more. Heads have to come off with a pretty strong chance that head at least will not be worth trying to rebuild. Since the factors that lead to this damage are the same across the engine (low detergent fuel plus periods of non-use are the main reasons these engines are so prone to intake valve sticking), you should suspect the same for both heads. _________________ Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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pburkeame Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2018 Posts: 42 Location: British Columbia
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Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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It looks like Wildthings was right on the money. I pulled the #1 and #2 head and removed both intake valves as the #1 guide was totally dislodged and #2 was backed out a ways. I removed both valve guides and reinstalled them. I eyeballed how far in they should go by the staining on the guides. I put the head back on using a seal kit from Concept 1 and crossed my fingers. I started the engine and she ran fine for what seemed like longer than it did before before smoking, but it did smoke still. I let it run for awhile and shut it down. I honestly felt defeated. Snooping around I heard what sounded like sizzling coming from the tail pipe. I concluded that excess oil from before had accumulated in the muffler and was burning off as the exhaust system heated up. So, I started it back up and let it cook away. I think it’s getting better now. Over the next few days I’ll let it run for awhile. I will also monitor the position of the guides from the rocker area.
The reason I don’t get new heads is because the van is not in my name just yet. I bought it off a salvage place that was not the legal owner and I have to get it inspected before I can get it transferred to my name. I don’t want to sink a bunch of money into it until I’m the legal owner. That and there is a DOKA I want to buy right now. When I am the legal owner, the cascade of money will start. _________________ 1987 Vanagon Syncro, Manual
1987 Vanagon 2WD, Automatic
1986 DOKA Syncro, Manual
1980 Westphalia, 2WD, Manual (Under Construction) |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22641 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Sat May 02, 2020 3:10 am Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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Those valve guides are shrunk fit into the head, did you use new ones or just put the old ones back in? _________________ .ssS! |
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pburkeame Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2018 Posts: 42 Location: British Columbia
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Posted: Sat May 02, 2020 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Big plume of smoke. |
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No, they were the same guides. Once the van is in my name I’ll start sinking some money into it. I just wanted to see if that fixed the excessive smoking and it did. It’s almost like fresh mountain air coming out now. _________________ 1987 Vanagon Syncro, Manual
1987 Vanagon 2WD, Automatic
1986 DOKA Syncro, Manual
1980 Westphalia, 2WD, Manual (Under Construction) |
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