Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
1st gear pop out on lift off
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
balljoint
Samba Member


Joined: March 28, 2016
Posts: 164
Location: Tobago
balljoint is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:38 am    Post subject: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

So my AO beetle tranny pops out of 1st gear ONLY when I lift off the gas. If I lift off slowly to prevent any jerking or sudden movements it stays in 80% of the time.

I have adjusted the shifter to a position where it works best and dont have any grinding or hard shifting issues with any of the other gears, and even totally disconnected the shift coupling but is actually jumps out easier with the coupling disconnected Think

The trans was rebuilt by the previous owner and this is the first time it is actually being driven since the rebuild.
The only info i have on it is a receipt of the parts bought which were main shaft bearing, main shaft thrust washer,shifter housing bushing/seal, 3/4 slider/clutch assembly complete and reverse fork carrier.

The one guy who specialize in VWs on my little island no longer deals with trannies and doesnt have the jig etc to set it up and the guy who did build it remains a mystery so guess what....I'm gonna have to deal with it myself!

I'm pretty good with a wrench, have a bentley and have been doing lots of research on the topic so I'm confident I could handle it with some advice.

Im hoping it could be something as simple as shifter fork adjustment but we all know its never just that simple right! What do you guys think is up?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Booky
Samba Member


Joined: April 21, 2013
Posts: 149
Location: Pa
Booky is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Have you checked the transmission mounts?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Coyotemutt
Samba Member


Joined: June 16, 2017
Posts: 360
Location: Pecos, New Mexico
Coyotemutt is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Booky wrote:
Have you checked the transmission mounts?


I'll second this. I just inspected and replaced some trans mounts while the engine was out. Now suddenly it doesnt pop out of second anymore. I dont know how this was affecting ONLY second gear, but it was...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Casting Timmy
Samba Member


Joined: August 04, 2012
Posts: 1221
Location: Kansas City, Kansas
Casting Timmy is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

I'd wonder what the slider and 1st gear teeth look like at this point in time.

You can also unhook the shaft through the tunnel from the coupler and see if it moves about the same from 1st to neutral and then neutral to 2nd. I'd probably put the shifter in first and undo the bolt and see if the trans wants to pull the hcokey stick in or out and that would tell you the shifter is set right as well as the shift rail wants to sit in it's detent.

There is also an IRS trans rebuild there here on thesamba if you start taking it apart you can follow along with that to put it back together. You can use an old cut up case as a trans jig and I know one builder that actually prefers it that way.
_________________
T1 IRS Rebuild Book on Lulu.com
http://www.lulu.com/shop/tim-marshall/t1-irs-transaxle-book/paperback/product-24055997.html
As seen in Volks America Issue 14 Page 11 (Full page review)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
balljoint
Samba Member


Joined: March 28, 2016
Posts: 164
Location: Tobago
balljoint is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Booky wrote:
Have you checked the transmission mounts?

Mounts are good,but it does it even with the shifter rod disconnected so gear pullout by a moving trans is ruled out here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
balljoint
Samba Member


Joined: March 28, 2016
Posts: 164
Location: Tobago
balljoint is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Casting Timmy wrote:
I'd wonder what the slider and 1st gear teeth look like at this point in time.

You can also unhook the shaft through the tunnel from the coupler and see if it moves about the same from 1st to neutral and then neutral to 2nd. I'd probably put the shifter in first and undo the bolt and see if the trans wants to pull the hcokey stick in or out and that would tell you the shifter is set right as well as the shift rail wants to sit in it's detent.

There is also an IRS trans rebuild there here on thesamba if you start taking it apart you can follow along with that to put it back together. You can use an old cut up case as a trans jig and I know one builder that actually prefers it that way.


From what I understand you can see the 1/2 slider from through the fill hole, will this be good enough to get a look to diagnose? That is my next plan.

When I shift into all the gears I can definately feel when they fall into the indents and have a little play back and forth in each one with and without the shifter connected.

When going into gear, if I push it to where I get resistance then into gear and pull back to get resistance as if pulling it out of gear the distance the hockey stick travels is about 8.6mm.

This is the same for all gears with the shifter connected... I dont know how accurate this is for gauging shifter fork adjustment??
Hope you understand...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ricaroo
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2016
Posts: 662
Location: 603
ricaroo is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

If you decide to take it apart yourself, I would consider purchasing this book
If it applies to your ride.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/tim-marshall/t1-irs-transaxle-book/paperback/product-24055997.html

Rick
_________________
1971 Standard Beetle 2 dr Sedan 1600dp
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Ohio Tom
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1657
Location: Marshallville Ohio
Ohio Tom is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Really sounds like the builder didn't set up the shift forks correctly in the jig.

Very common if not 100% competent in doing this.

I have repaired 2 trans this year for popping out of gear issues.
All from improper adjusted shift forks.

You could..
Take the the gear box apart and push the gear stack out and just box that up and ship it to someone with a jig, then get it back and re-assemble.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
balljoint
Samba Member


Joined: March 28, 2016
Posts: 164
Location: Tobago
balljoint is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

I'm 99% sure a jig wasnt used to start with.

So I had some fun with my endoscope, the results :

1st gear dogs

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Vid here

https://youtu.be/OezD1d0Bnjw

When I engage 1st via the shifter (and yes it's going all the way) the slider and 1st gear faces kisses but as I let off the shifter it moves away a bit.


Also if I go between 1st and neutral, only some times it goes all the way home. It goes all the way more often when I go to 2nd and then straight to 1st but still not all the time.

You can also see in the vid when I wiggle the shifter back and forth gently in 1st, the gears come apart but does not pop out.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Vid
https://youtu.be/7VORvz-hirM

Below Vid of second gear engaged and move the shifter back and forth. Notice no play on the gear until 20sec mark where I actually was pulling for it to come out of gear.

https://youtu.be/Y1o3FLqvTdU

Below Vid of first gear engaged and the shifter moved back and forth while in 1st viewed from the fork side

https://youtu.be/PaTO60gphSo

Thoughts?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Ohio Tom
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1657
Location: Marshallville Ohio
Ohio Tom is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Yep, bad adjustment..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
balljoint
Samba Member


Joined: March 28, 2016
Posts: 164
Location: Tobago
balljoint is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:44 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Ohio Tom wrote:
Yep, bad adjustment..

Thanks for the reply.

Yup I was thinking it would be bad fork adjustment as the fork is hard up against the groove on the 2nd gear side..

One question though....Is the gear on the slider supposed to be kissing 1st gear permanently when engaged and adjusted properly as shown in this pic?


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Ohio Tom
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1657
Location: Marshallville Ohio
Ohio Tom is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:36 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Yes, the fork should hold the slider home. That's how you know you have it adjusted correctly. When it holds the slider all the home for both 1st and 2nd gear, you got it right.
It's like splitting hairs.
A fuzz too far one way, and it pops out of one gear; too far the other and it pops out of the other gear...
A 1/32" of an inch can make a difference...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
balljoint
Samba Member


Joined: March 28, 2016
Posts: 164
Location: Tobago
balljoint is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Ahhhh....One more thing to add to the list. I love these cars!
Thanks again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mcmscott
Samba Member


Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4848
Location: sanger ca
mcmscott is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Ohio Tom wrote:
Yes, the fork should hold the slider home. That's how you know you have it adjusted correctly. When it holds the slider all the home for both 1st and 2nd gear, you got it right.
It's like splitting hairs.
A fuzz too far one way, and it pops out of one gear; too far the other and it pops out of the other gear...
A 1/32" of an inch can make a difference...



Sorry in advance for the reply because it is gonna be harsh,, but this is dead wrong. This person obviously has no idea how a vw transmission works.
If the fork held the operating sleeve against the gear it would scream and wear out very early. There is movement around the fork when the operating sleeve is in its coresponding gear, the operating sleeve can, and does move away from that gear. Normal operation. The only thing 32nd of an inch would do is cause noise and a worn fork.
Transmissions are "held" in gear by the angle on the engagement teeth on the gear x the condition of the operating sleeve.
Not saying that fork adjustment is not important, but if it was so bad as to pull it out of gear it would scream in the next gear. If that was the case then keep driving because the oppisite side of the fork will waer down and allow it to engage first gear all the way... But that is not the case. The engagement teeth on first gear are worn, the builder didn't catch it or thought the wear was "acceptible".


Sorry for the rant, but Ohio dude is so wrong we might as well call him Dale or Ray.
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,

68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Ohio Tom
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1657
Location: Marshallville Ohio
Ohio Tom is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:04 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

mcmscott wrote:
Ohio Tom wrote:
Yes, the fork should hold the slider home. That's how you know you have it adjusted correctly. When it holds the slider all the home for both 1st and 2nd gear, you got it right.
It's like splitting hairs.
A fuzz too far one way, and it pops out of one gear; too far the other and it pops out of the other gear...
A 1/32" of an inch can make a difference...



Sorry in advance for the reply because it is gonna be harsh,, but this is dead wrong. This person obviously has no idea how a vw transmission works.
If the fork held the operating sleeve against the gear it would scream and wear out very early. There is movement around the fork when the operating sleeve is in its coresponding gear, the operating sleeve can, and does move away from that gear. Normal operation. The only thing 32nd of an inch would do is cause noise and a worn fork.
Transmissions are "held" in gear by the angle on the engagement teeth on the gear x the condition of the operating sleeve.
Not saying that fork adjustment is not important, but if it was so bad as to pull it out of gear it would scream in the next gear. If that was the case then keep driving because the oppisite side of the fork will waer down and allow it to engage first gear all the way... But that is not the case. The engagement teeth on first gear are worn, the builder didn't catch it or thought the wear was "acceptable".


Sorry for the rant, but Ohio dude is so wrong we might as well call him Dale or Ray.


At least you can address me by my name... Tom... It's OK to do that...
I don't know Dale or Ray anyways... I hope that wasn't meant as an insult, because I didn't get it..

As stated before, I have done 2 trans fixes this winter alone just for "popping out of gear" that were built by others. Plus plenty of other boxes as well. More than 30 under my belt.
I can't tell you how many boxes I get that were built by someone else, then come to me to get fixed.

Stock, HOt street, drag race, Pro-Mod, Pro-Stock.. I have done them all...
Mediola, 6-rib, T-1, Mitsubishi...

Good news:... none of them pop out of gear, or wear out prematurely.

Can't be that wrong....

I really wish we could have had an intelligent conversation about this.
While I hear what you are saying, the fact is you cannot adjust the fork so far that it wears out one side, while having it work fine for the opposing gear.
It won't stay in the opposing gear (thus popping out).
So, not only will it pop out of one gear, I agree that it has the potential to wear out the fork in the other gear.
However, Most folks don't get that far. They pull the trans because it pops out of gear.
So, if you have it set correctly, it won't pop out of gear, and it won't wear stuff out...
Can we agree on that?


Last edited by Ohio Tom on Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:14 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
balljoint
Samba Member


Joined: March 28, 2016
Posts: 164
Location: Tobago
balljoint is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:05 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

No need to apologize and I value everyone's input. If everyone had the same opinion and ideas this place would be boring right! Laughing

According to "the book" the fork should be centralized in the groove of the operating sleeve both when the gear is selected and when in neutral. So we could safely assume the the fork or pressure from the fork does not hold the gear in place.

I do believe the fork is out of adjustment because it is definitely hard up against the sleeve on the second gear side but of course this might be only part of the problem.

Mcmscott have you seen the vid I posed with the first gear dogs? I am new to this but from what I have researched the peak on them seems defined and does not have a whole lot of wear.
I also tried to get a look at the teeth in the 1/2 sleeve but was only able to get it on the 2nd gear side....I'm assuming first gear side will be more or less in the same condition. See vid below.
Aren't those on the sleeve supposed to be pointed?..its not from what I see??

https://youtu.be/GrmDW3KRLAE

Thanks guys.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mcmscott
Samba Member


Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4848
Location: sanger ca
mcmscott is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Ohio Tom wrote:
mcmscott wrote:
Ohio Tom wrote:
Yes, the fork should hold the slider home. That's how you know you have it adjusted correctly. When it holds the slider all the home for both 1st and 2nd gear, you got it right.
It's like splitting hairs.
A fuzz too far one way, and it pops out of one gear; too far the other and it pops out of the other gear...
A 1/32" of an inch can make a difference...



Sorry in advance for the reply because it is gonna be harsh,, but this is dead wrong. This person obviously has no idea how a vw transmission works.
If the fork held the operating sleeve against the gear it would scream and wear out very early. There is movement around the fork when the operating sleeve is in its coresponding gear, the operating sleeve can, and does move away from that gear. Normal operation. The only thing 32nd of an inch would do is cause noise and a worn fork.
Transmissions are "held" in gear by the angle on the engagement teeth on the gear x the condition of the operating sleeve.
Not saying that fork adjustment is not important, but if it was so bad as to pull it out of gear it would scream in the next gear. If that was the case then keep driving because the oppisite side of the fork will waer down and allow it to engage first gear all the way... But that is not the case. The engagement teeth on first gear are worn, the builder didn't catch it or thought the wear was "acceptable".


Sorry for the rant, but Ohio dude is so wrong we might as well call him Dale or Ray.


At least you can address me by my name... Tom... It's OK to do that...
I don't know Dale or Ray anyways... I hope that wasn't meant as an insult, because I didn't get it..

As stated before, I have done 2 trans fixes this winter alone just for "popping out of gear" that were built by others. Plus plenty of other boxes as well. More than 30 under my belt.
I can't tell you how many boxes I get that were built by someone else, then come to me to get fixed.

Stock, HOt street, drag race, Pro-Mod, Pro-Stock.. I have done them all...
Mediola, 6-rib, T-1, Mitsubishi...

Good news:... none of them pop out of gear, or wear out prematurely.

Can't be that wrong....

I really wish we could have had an intelligent conversation about this.
While I hear what you are saying, the fact is you cannot adjust the fork so far that it wears out one side, while having it work fine for the opposing gear.
It won't stay in the opposing gear (thus popping out).
So, not only will it pop out of one gear, I agree that it has the potential to wear out the fork in the other gear.
However, Most folks don't get that far. They pull the trans because it pops out of gear.
So, if you have it set correctly, it won't pop out of gear, and it won't wear stuff out...
Can we agree on that?





2 fixes this winter? I'm on my second complete this week, got a 002 and a 67 to do also this week. I have well over 1000 t-1s alone under my belt. I'm the only Mendeola dealer in the central valley of Ca. Trust me when I say that that little out of adjustment is not the problem and the problem is the engagement teeth with the contact of the operating sleeve. So if it is set correctly, it def. can pop out of gear and wear other parts out.
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,

68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Ohio Tom
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1657
Location: Marshallville Ohio
Ohio Tom is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Scott, you seem to know what you are doing.

How about helping the OP?

Focus your energy on actually helping.

Just a suggestion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mcmscott
Samba Member


Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4848
Location: sanger ca
mcmscott is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

"the problem is the engagement teeth with the contact of the operating sleeve."
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,

68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
gears
Samba Member


Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
gears is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Photos might help:

Here's an unworn flank (yeah OEM sometimes isn't that pretty)
Note the slight wear on tip and corner ..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


.. while on this gear, tip & corner have about the same wear, yet the flank is toast. So, you can't judge condition of the engagement teeth based on tips alone. (sorry for fuzzy)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.