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balljoint Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2016 Posts: 164 Location: Tobago
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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:38 am Post subject: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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So my AO beetle tranny pops out of 1st gear ONLY when I lift off the gas. If I lift off slowly to prevent any jerking or sudden movements it stays in 80% of the time.
I have adjusted the shifter to a position where it works best and dont have any grinding or hard shifting issues with any of the other gears, and even totally disconnected the shift coupling but is actually jumps out easier with the coupling disconnected
The trans was rebuilt by the previous owner and this is the first time it is actually being driven since the rebuild.
The only info i have on it is a receipt of the parts bought which were main shaft bearing, main shaft thrust washer,shifter housing bushing/seal, 3/4 slider/clutch assembly complete and reverse fork carrier.
The one guy who specialize in VWs on my little island no longer deals with trannies and doesnt have the jig etc to set it up and the guy who did build it remains a mystery so guess what....I'm gonna have to deal with it myself!
I'm pretty good with a wrench, have a bentley and have been doing lots of research on the topic so I'm confident I could handle it with some advice.
Im hoping it could be something as simple as shifter fork adjustment but we all know its never just that simple right! What do you guys think is up? |
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Booky Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2013 Posts: 149 Location: Pa
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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:28 am Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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Have you checked the transmission mounts? |
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Coyotemutt Samba Member
Joined: June 16, 2017 Posts: 360 Location: Pecos, New Mexico
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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:58 am Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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Booky wrote: |
Have you checked the transmission mounts? |
I'll second this. I just inspected and replaced some trans mounts while the engine was out. Now suddenly it doesnt pop out of second anymore. I dont know how this was affecting ONLY second gear, but it was... |
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Casting Timmy Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2012 Posts: 1221 Location: Kansas City, Kansas
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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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I'd wonder what the slider and 1st gear teeth look like at this point in time.
You can also unhook the shaft through the tunnel from the coupler and see if it moves about the same from 1st to neutral and then neutral to 2nd. I'd probably put the shifter in first and undo the bolt and see if the trans wants to pull the hcokey stick in or out and that would tell you the shifter is set right as well as the shift rail wants to sit in it's detent.
There is also an IRS trans rebuild there here on thesamba if you start taking it apart you can follow along with that to put it back together. You can use an old cut up case as a trans jig and I know one builder that actually prefers it that way. _________________ T1 IRS Rebuild Book on Lulu.com
http://www.lulu.com/shop/tim-marshall/t1-irs-transaxle-book/paperback/product-24055997.html
As seen in Volks America Issue 14 Page 11 (Full page review) |
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balljoint Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2016 Posts: 164 Location: Tobago
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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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Booky wrote: |
Have you checked the transmission mounts? |
Mounts are good,but it does it even with the shifter rod disconnected so gear pullout by a moving trans is ruled out here. |
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balljoint Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2016 Posts: 164 Location: Tobago
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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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Casting Timmy wrote: |
I'd wonder what the slider and 1st gear teeth look like at this point in time.
You can also unhook the shaft through the tunnel from the coupler and see if it moves about the same from 1st to neutral and then neutral to 2nd. I'd probably put the shifter in first and undo the bolt and see if the trans wants to pull the hcokey stick in or out and that would tell you the shifter is set right as well as the shift rail wants to sit in it's detent.
There is also an IRS trans rebuild there here on thesamba if you start taking it apart you can follow along with that to put it back together. You can use an old cut up case as a trans jig and I know one builder that actually prefers it that way. |
From what I understand you can see the 1/2 slider from through the fill hole, will this be good enough to get a look to diagnose? That is my next plan.
When I shift into all the gears I can definately feel when they fall into the indents and have a little play back and forth in each one with and without the shifter connected.
When going into gear, if I push it to where I get resistance then into gear and pull back to get resistance as if pulling it out of gear the distance the hockey stick travels is about 8.6mm.
This is the same for all gears with the shifter connected... I dont know how accurate this is for gauging shifter fork adjustment??
Hope you understand... |
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ricaroo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2016 Posts: 662 Location: 603
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Ohio Tom Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1657 Location: Marshallville Ohio
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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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Really sounds like the builder didn't set up the shift forks correctly in the jig.
Very common if not 100% competent in doing this.
I have repaired 2 trans this year for popping out of gear issues.
All from improper adjusted shift forks.
You could..
Take the the gear box apart and push the gear stack out and just box that up and ship it to someone with a jig, then get it back and re-assemble. |
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balljoint Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2016 Posts: 164 Location: Tobago
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Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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I'm 99% sure a jig wasnt used to start with.
So I had some fun with my endoscope, the results :
1st gear dogs
Vid here
https://youtu.be/OezD1d0Bnjw
When I engage 1st via the shifter (and yes it's going all the way) the slider and 1st gear faces kisses but as I let off the shifter it moves away a bit.
Also if I go between 1st and neutral, only some times it goes all the way home. It goes all the way more often when I go to 2nd and then straight to 1st but still not all the time.
You can also see in the vid when I wiggle the shifter back and forth gently in 1st, the gears come apart but does not pop out.
Vid
https://youtu.be/7VORvz-hirM
Below Vid of second gear engaged and move the shifter back and forth. Notice no play on the gear until 20sec mark where I actually was pulling for it to come out of gear.
https://youtu.be/Y1o3FLqvTdU
Below Vid of first gear engaged and the shifter moved back and forth while in 1st viewed from the fork side
https://youtu.be/PaTO60gphSo
Thoughts? |
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Ohio Tom Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1657 Location: Marshallville Ohio
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Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:16 am Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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Yep, bad adjustment.. |
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balljoint Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2016 Posts: 164 Location: Tobago
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:44 am Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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Ohio Tom wrote: |
Yep, bad adjustment.. |
Thanks for the reply.
Yup I was thinking it would be bad fork adjustment as the fork is hard up against the groove on the 2nd gear side..
One question though....Is the gear on the slider supposed to be kissing 1st gear permanently when engaged and adjusted properly as shown in this pic?
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Ohio Tom Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1657 Location: Marshallville Ohio
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:36 am Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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Yes, the fork should hold the slider home. That's how you know you have it adjusted correctly. When it holds the slider all the home for both 1st and 2nd gear, you got it right.
It's like splitting hairs.
A fuzz too far one way, and it pops out of one gear; too far the other and it pops out of the other gear...
A 1/32" of an inch can make a difference... |
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balljoint Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2016 Posts: 164 Location: Tobago
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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Ahhhh....One more thing to add to the list. I love these cars!
Thanks again. |
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mcmscott Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010 Posts: 4848 Location: sanger ca
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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Ohio Tom wrote: |
Yes, the fork should hold the slider home. That's how you know you have it adjusted correctly. When it holds the slider all the home for both 1st and 2nd gear, you got it right.
It's like splitting hairs.
A fuzz too far one way, and it pops out of one gear; too far the other and it pops out of the other gear...
A 1/32" of an inch can make a difference... |
Sorry in advance for the reply because it is gonna be harsh,, but this is dead wrong. This person obviously has no idea how a vw transmission works.
If the fork held the operating sleeve against the gear it would scream and wear out very early. There is movement around the fork when the operating sleeve is in its coresponding gear, the operating sleeve can, and does move away from that gear. Normal operation. The only thing 32nd of an inch would do is cause noise and a worn fork.
Transmissions are "held" in gear by the angle on the engagement teeth on the gear x the condition of the operating sleeve.
Not saying that fork adjustment is not important, but if it was so bad as to pull it out of gear it would scream in the next gear. If that was the case then keep driving because the oppisite side of the fork will waer down and allow it to engage first gear all the way... But that is not the case. The engagement teeth on first gear are worn, the builder didn't catch it or thought the wear was "acceptible".
Sorry for the rant, but Ohio dude is so wrong we might as well call him Dale or Ray. _________________ There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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Ohio Tom Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1657 Location: Marshallville Ohio
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Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:04 am Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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mcmscott wrote: |
Ohio Tom wrote: |
Yes, the fork should hold the slider home. That's how you know you have it adjusted correctly. When it holds the slider all the home for both 1st and 2nd gear, you got it right.
It's like splitting hairs.
A fuzz too far one way, and it pops out of one gear; too far the other and it pops out of the other gear...
A 1/32" of an inch can make a difference... |
Sorry in advance for the reply because it is gonna be harsh,, but this is dead wrong. This person obviously has no idea how a vw transmission works.
If the fork held the operating sleeve against the gear it would scream and wear out very early. There is movement around the fork when the operating sleeve is in its coresponding gear, the operating sleeve can, and does move away from that gear. Normal operation. The only thing 32nd of an inch would do is cause noise and a worn fork.
Transmissions are "held" in gear by the angle on the engagement teeth on the gear x the condition of the operating sleeve.
Not saying that fork adjustment is not important, but if it was so bad as to pull it out of gear it would scream in the next gear. If that was the case then keep driving because the oppisite side of the fork will waer down and allow it to engage first gear all the way... But that is not the case. The engagement teeth on first gear are worn, the builder didn't catch it or thought the wear was "acceptable".
Sorry for the rant, but Ohio dude is so wrong we might as well call him Dale or Ray. |
At least you can address me by my name... Tom... It's OK to do that...
I don't know Dale or Ray anyways... I hope that wasn't meant as an insult, because I didn't get it..
As stated before, I have done 2 trans fixes this winter alone just for "popping out of gear" that were built by others. Plus plenty of other boxes as well. More than 30 under my belt.
I can't tell you how many boxes I get that were built by someone else, then come to me to get fixed.
Stock, HOt street, drag race, Pro-Mod, Pro-Stock.. I have done them all...
Mediola, 6-rib, T-1, Mitsubishi...
Good news:... none of them pop out of gear, or wear out prematurely.
Can't be that wrong....
I really wish we could have had an intelligent conversation about this.
While I hear what you are saying, the fact is you cannot adjust the fork so far that it wears out one side, while having it work fine for the opposing gear.
It won't stay in the opposing gear (thus popping out).
So, not only will it pop out of one gear, I agree that it has the potential to wear out the fork in the other gear.
However, Most folks don't get that far. They pull the trans because it pops out of gear.
So, if you have it set correctly, it won't pop out of gear, and it won't wear stuff out...
Can we agree on that?
Last edited by Ohio Tom on Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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balljoint Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2016 Posts: 164 Location: Tobago
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Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:05 am Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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No need to apologize and I value everyone's input. If everyone had the same opinion and ideas this place would be boring right!
According to "the book" the fork should be centralized in the groove of the operating sleeve both when the gear is selected and when in neutral. So we could safely assume the the fork or pressure from the fork does not hold the gear in place.
I do believe the fork is out of adjustment because it is definitely hard up against the sleeve on the second gear side but of course this might be only part of the problem.
Mcmscott have you seen the vid I posed with the first gear dogs? I am new to this but from what I have researched the peak on them seems defined and does not have a whole lot of wear.
I also tried to get a look at the teeth in the 1/2 sleeve but was only able to get it on the 2nd gear side....I'm assuming first gear side will be more or less in the same condition. See vid below.
Aren't those on the sleeve supposed to be pointed?..its not from what I see??
https://youtu.be/GrmDW3KRLAE
Thanks guys. |
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mcmscott Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010 Posts: 4848 Location: sanger ca
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Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:39 am Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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Ohio Tom wrote: |
mcmscott wrote: |
Ohio Tom wrote: |
Yes, the fork should hold the slider home. That's how you know you have it adjusted correctly. When it holds the slider all the home for both 1st and 2nd gear, you got it right.
It's like splitting hairs.
A fuzz too far one way, and it pops out of one gear; too far the other and it pops out of the other gear...
A 1/32" of an inch can make a difference... |
Sorry in advance for the reply because it is gonna be harsh,, but this is dead wrong. This person obviously has no idea how a vw transmission works.
If the fork held the operating sleeve against the gear it would scream and wear out very early. There is movement around the fork when the operating sleeve is in its coresponding gear, the operating sleeve can, and does move away from that gear. Normal operation. The only thing 32nd of an inch would do is cause noise and a worn fork.
Transmissions are "held" in gear by the angle on the engagement teeth on the gear x the condition of the operating sleeve.
Not saying that fork adjustment is not important, but if it was so bad as to pull it out of gear it would scream in the next gear. If that was the case then keep driving because the oppisite side of the fork will waer down and allow it to engage first gear all the way... But that is not the case. The engagement teeth on first gear are worn, the builder didn't catch it or thought the wear was "acceptable".
Sorry for the rant, but Ohio dude is so wrong we might as well call him Dale or Ray. |
At least you can address me by my name... Tom... It's OK to do that...
I don't know Dale or Ray anyways... I hope that wasn't meant as an insult, because I didn't get it..
As stated before, I have done 2 trans fixes this winter alone just for "popping out of gear" that were built by others. Plus plenty of other boxes as well. More than 30 under my belt.
I can't tell you how many boxes I get that were built by someone else, then come to me to get fixed.
Stock, HOt street, drag race, Pro-Mod, Pro-Stock.. I have done them all...
Mediola, 6-rib, T-1, Mitsubishi...
Good news:... none of them pop out of gear, or wear out prematurely.
Can't be that wrong....
I really wish we could have had an intelligent conversation about this.
While I hear what you are saying, the fact is you cannot adjust the fork so far that it wears out one side, while having it work fine for the opposing gear.
It won't stay in the opposing gear (thus popping out).
So, not only will it pop out of one gear, I agree that it has the potential to wear out the fork in the other gear.
However, Most folks don't get that far. They pull the trans because it pops out of gear.
So, if you have it set correctly, it won't pop out of gear, and it won't wear stuff out...
Can we agree on that? |
2 fixes this winter? I'm on my second complete this week, got a 002 and a 67 to do also this week. I have well over 1000 t-1s alone under my belt. I'm the only Mendeola dealer in the central valley of Ca. Trust me when I say that that little out of adjustment is not the problem and the problem is the engagement teeth with the contact of the operating sleeve. So if it is set correctly, it def. can pop out of gear and wear other parts out. _________________ There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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Ohio Tom Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1657 Location: Marshallville Ohio
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:48 am Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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Scott, you seem to know what you are doing.
How about helping the OP?
Focus your energy on actually helping.
Just a suggestion. |
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mcmscott Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010 Posts: 4848 Location: sanger ca
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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"the problem is the engagement teeth with the contact of the operating sleeve." _________________ There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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gears Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002 Posts: 4391 Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off |
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Photos might help:
Here's an unworn flank (yeah OEM sometimes isn't that pretty)
Note the slight wear on tip and corner ..
.. while on this gear, tip & corner have about the same wear, yet the flank is toast. So, you can't judge condition of the engagement teeth based on tips alone. (sorry for fuzzy)
_________________ aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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