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RalphWiggam
Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2018
Posts: 906
Location: SouthEast
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 Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:25 am Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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| narfro wrote: |
| RalphWiggam wrote: |
For the record my 1.7l rebuild was running pretty hot after I rebuilt it. 235-240 oil temps were common.
It really hasnt reached the ambient temps of last year when I was doing the testing, but so far everything is still running great.
When it gets back up into the 80-85F ambients I will see if the miles I have put on this past year have broken the engine in.
Right now with 70-75 ambients I am running a little less than 220F oil temps.
EDIT....fyi...I have slightly over 3k miles on the rebuild now. |
That’s good to know. Like I said - I have about ~3500 miles, probably a little more honestly. When I say it’s get to 220, it gets there within a matter of a few minutes driving easy. I’m hitting 240+ in 15 minutes or less and then have a flashing oil light shortly there after. It gets so hot touching anything around the engine bay, for example the bumper, would burn you. |
OK, well mine definitely never got that hot. I can only hit 220 after about 20 minutes of driving 65mph. Around town it stays in the 180 range. |
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Hoody
Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 1948
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:54 am Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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| Wow I did not know they had type 4 motors in 1957. You learn something new every day. |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:27 am Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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| Hoody wrote: |
| Wow I did not know they had type 4 motors in 1957. You learn something new every day. |
Oil is oil my friend.
See you on the road.
Robbie
_________________
Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:40 am Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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So...we get used to asking these questions. I guess we are getting sloppy....  ....I was reminded by a person this morning (H***Y)that we forgot to ask some of the more important ones! 
He notes that he has domed 411/412/Porsche pistons. As I lightly mentioned....if those are the actual $11/412914 pistons with 8.2:1 compression.....those would be domed pistons.
Question: did the mechanic/builder leave out the head gasket (as they should have)? If so...with a minor flycut as well....the compression could be as high as 8.3:1 or bumping 8.4:1. If so...to survive in a bus.....the tuning and build quality must be perfect.
AND.....this engine if it has the original bus cam....I am not sure what it should be in timing at that compression.
But....if it has the 411/412/914 cam....that cam with that compression does not do well if its retarded in any way. So it must be sure to be set up at 27 BTDC at 3500 rpm. And....should not idle retarded. It needs to run a bare minimum of about 8* BTDC at idle and better at about 10* and idle of 900+.
The other important question that none of us have asked and we need to....is what oil pump is in it? If it was a stock pump....what was done to it because most of them are shot at they stage. If it was not a stock pump...which pump and what was done.
There are known problems with running too large of a pump (oil cooler bypass) or oil leakage problems (case fit issues). Ray |
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narfro
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2017
Posts: 93
Location: Santa Barbara
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
So...we get used to asking these questions. I guess we are getting sloppy.... ....I was reminded by a person this morning (H***Y)that we forgot to ask some of the more important ones!
He notes that he has domed 411/412/Porsche pistons. As I lightly mentioned....if those are the actual $11/412914 pistons with 8.2:1 compression.....those would be domed pistons.
Question: did the mechanic/builder leave out the head gasket (as they should have)? If so...with a minor flycut as well....the compression could be as high as 8.3:1 or bumping 8.4:1. If so...to survive in a bus.....the tuning and build quality must be perfect.
AND.....this engine if it has the original bus cam....I am not sure what it should be in timing at that compression.
But....if it has the 411/412/914 cam....that cam with that compression does not do well if its retarded in any way. So it must be sure to be set up at 27 BTDC at 3500 rpm. And....should not idle retarded. It needs to run a bare minimum of about 8* BTDC at idle and better at about 10* and idle of 900+.
The other important question that none of us have asked and we need to....is what oil pump is in it? If it was a stock pump....what was done to it because most of them are shot at they stage. If it was not a stock pump...which pump and what was done.
There are known problems with running too large of a pump (oil cooler bypass) or oil leakage problems (case fit issues). Ray |
Let me get back to you when I have my paperwork with me and can answer these more precisely. As far as I’m aware it is the original cam. I had looked previously through my paperwork when that came up and there is no note of a new cam.
As an aside - my timing and idle has had issues on this rebuild. I’ve had to take it in on more than 3 occasions because my idle was sitting at basically full throttle. Couldn’t even get it into gear when this was happening. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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| narfro wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
So...we get used to asking these questions. I guess we are getting sloppy.... ....I was reminded by a person this morning (H***Y)that we forgot to ask some of the more important ones!
He notes that he has domed 411/412/Porsche pistons. As I lightly mentioned....if those are the actual $11/412914 pistons with 8.2:1 compression.....those would be domed pistons.
Question: did the mechanic/builder leave out the head gasket (as they should have)? If so...with a minor flycut as well....the compression could be as high as 8.3:1 or bumping 8.4:1. If so...to survive in a bus.....the tuning and build quality must be perfect.
AND.....this engine if it has the original bus cam....I am not sure what it should be in timing at that compression.
But....if it has the 411/412/914 cam....that cam with that compression does not do well if its retarded in any way. So it must be sure to be set up at 27 BTDC at 3500 rpm. And....should not idle retarded. It needs to run a bare minimum of about 8* BTDC at idle and better at about 10* and idle of 900+.
The other important question that none of us have asked and we need to....is what oil pump is in it? If it was a stock pump....what was done to it because most of them are shot at they stage. If it was not a stock pump...which pump and what was done.
There are known problems with running too large of a pump (oil cooler bypass) or oil leakage problems (case fit issues). Ray |
Let me get back to you when I have my paperwork with me and can answer these more precisely. As far as I’m aware it is the original cam. I had looked previously through my paperwork when that came up and there is no note of a new cam.
As an aside - my timing and idle has had issues on this rebuild. I’ve had to take it in on more than 3 occasions because my idle was sitting at basically full throttle. Couldn’t even get it into gear when this was happening. |
Ok....that's important. You have twin carbs.....AND....you have an excessively high idle....which can mean vacuum leaks. Vacuum leaks = lean. Lean = running exceasively hot.
Also.....did this start out as a 1.7L bus engine....or was this a 1.7L from another vehicle?
If otw the original engine from a bus or your bus....it "should" have a bus specific cam....although it has never been 100% clear to me that the first years or bus 1.7L had a cam,different than the 411/412/914. Ray |
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narfro
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2017
Posts: 93
Location: Santa Barbara
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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| SGKent wrote: |
ignore the text in the photo. There is also a piece of flat spring steel that holds the rod down missing in this photo.
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It looks like my spring is freely moving and not connected to anything. Also whatever cable is running to the nut/plate combo on the right is not present on mine.
I’m wondering if when the engine was torn down and the top end rebuilt if my mechanic missed reconnecting this. It also makes me wonder though if that was something missed, what else was possibly missed that could be leading to the issues I’ve been having?
I’ve attached some photos i just took.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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Yes....you flap spring is...unwound. Meaning.....normally if all else was well and your thermostat and cable were simply disconnected from the lever....the spring would pull the flaps open and the lever straight up at best and tilted slightly toward the rear at worst.
If you look closely the end of the spring is hanging loose. When you install the flaps...before yoy put the little metal plate on....the flap spring gets a single 270° turn toward the rear crom where you see the end of it now.....to put tension on it to hold the flaps open when the cable gets longer as the thermostat opens.
So your flaps are probably floating around partially open/closed. Ray |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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| It would be good to know if your flaps are even there as people are known remove them, especially people who live in hot areas. You might be able to find this out from your mechanic. He would have seen them if he knew what to look for. Your thermostat and the little cable that connects it to the little lever on the rod, may well be missing altogether. A picture of the right underside of your engine with the sled tin remove would let us know what is there and what isn't. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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It would be good to know if your flaps are even there as people are known remove them, especially people who live in hot areas. You might be able to find this out from your mechanic,he would have seen them if he knew what to look for. Your thermostat and the little cable that connects it to the little lever on the rod, may well be missing altogether. A picture of the right underside of your engine with the sled tin remove would let us know what is there and what isn't.
Something tells me your mechanic isn't all that up on Type 4 engines. |
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narfro
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2017
Posts: 93
Location: Santa Barbara
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| It would be good to know if your flaps are even there as people are known remove them, especially people who live in hot areas. You might be able to find this out from your mechanic. He would have seen them if he knew what to look for. Your thermostat and the little cable that connects it to the little lever on the rod, may well be missing altogether. A picture of the right underside of your engine with the sled tin remove would let us know what is there and what isn't. |
He removed the cable and thermostat. Flaps are present, but my question is if the spring is unwound would that mean that the flaps are not set to the open position where it would effectively cool the oil?
My mechanic said he leaves them open because a thermostat and cable aren’t necessary unless you’re in a colder climate, which Santa Barbara isn’t.
Edit: I should note he didn’t seem aware that the spring was an issue. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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| narfro wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| It would be good to know if your flaps are even there as people are known remove them, especially people who live in hot areas. You might be able to find this out from your mechanic. He would have seen them if he knew what to look for. Your thermostat and the little cable that connects it to the little lever on the rod, may well be missing altogether. A picture of the right underside of your engine with the sled tin remove would let us know what is there and what isn't. |
He removed the cable and thermostat. Flaps are present, but my question is if the spring is unwound would that mean that the flaps are not set to the open position where it would effectively cool the oil?
My mechanic said he leaves them open because a thermostat and cable aren’t necessary unless you’re in a colder climate, which Santa Barbara isn’t.
Edit: I should note he didn’t seem aware that the spring was an issue. |
Because the spring isn't properly loaded your flaps are not in the "hot" open position and thus you are not getting normal air flow through your oil cooler. If you are driving in winter even in Santa Barbara you wants the thermostat hooked up. In the summer it will make little difference if it is there or not, but if you were to go up into the mountains where it is cooler and then go down a long grade, your engine would cool to where the oil was accumulating water and acids. |
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narfro
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2017
Posts: 93
Location: Santa Barbara
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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| narfro wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
So...we get used to asking these questions. I guess we are getting sloppy.... ....I was reminded by a person this morning (H***Y)that we forgot to ask some of the more important ones!
He notes that he has domed 411/412/Porsche pistons. As I lightly mentioned....if those are the actual $11/412914 pistons with 8.2:1 compression.....those would be domed pistons.
Question: did the mechanic/builder leave out the head gasket (as they should have)? If so...with a minor flycut as well....the compression could be as high as 8.3:1 or bumping 8.4:1. If so...to survive in a bus.....the tuning and build quality must be perfect.
AND.....this engine if it has the original bus cam....I am not sure what it should be in timing at that compression.
But....if it has the 411/412/914 cam....that cam with that compression does not do well if its retarded in any way. So it must be sure to be set up at 27 BTDC at 3500 rpm. And....should not idle retarded. It needs to run a bare minimum of about 8* BTDC at idle and better at about 10* and idle of 900+.
The other important question that none of us have asked and we need to....is what oil pump is in it? If it was a stock pump....what was done to it because most of them are shot at they stage. If it was not a stock pump...which pump and what was done.
There are known problems with running too large of a pump (oil cooler bypass) or oil leakage problems (case fit issues). Ray |
Let me get back to you when I have my paperwork with me and can answer these more precisely. As far as I’m aware it is the original cam. I had looked previously through my paperwork when that came up and there is no note of a new cam.
As an aside - my timing and idle has had issues on this rebuild. I’ve had to take it in on more than 3 occasions because my idle was sitting at basically full throttle. Couldn’t even get it into gear when this was happening. |
My paperwork is showing that a new engine gasket set was ordered. I can't tell if the head gasket from the set was left off or not.
As far as I'm aware it is those porsche pistons - I could be reading the paperwork wrong.
No new oil pump was ordered. It is either stock or it's some oil pump that the original owner placed on.
I've had the bus for 4 or 5 years now. The engine was the original engine and when it blew I had the top end rebuilt by this mechanic, but have since had consistent issues.
We could be going down a rabbit hole now, but I never had oil leak issues previously to my engine blowing. A drop here or there, but when I picked up my bus after the rebuild I was having constant issues with oil leaking. Even though new push rods were put in, we had to replace a few on more than one occasion. Even when I just brought the bus in, for I believe the 4th time because of the temperature issue, we replaced a push rod. |
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narfro
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2017
Posts: 93
Location: Santa Barbara
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| narfro wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| It would be good to know if your flaps are even there as people are known remove them, especially people who live in hot areas. You might be able to find this out from your mechanic. He would have seen them if he knew what to look for. Your thermostat and the little cable that connects it to the little lever on the rod, may well be missing altogether. A picture of the right underside of your engine with the sled tin remove would let us know what is there and what isn't. |
He removed the cable and thermostat. Flaps are present, but my question is if the spring is unwound would that mean that the flaps are not set to the open position where it would effectively cool the oil?
My mechanic said he leaves them open because a thermostat and cable aren’t necessary unless you’re in a colder climate, which Santa Barbara isn’t.
Edit: I should note he didn’t seem aware that the spring was an issue. |
Because the spring isn't properly loaded your flaps are not in the "hot" open position and thus you are not getting normal air flow through your oil cooler. If you are driving in winter even in Santa Barbara you wants the thermostat hooked up. In the summer it will make little difference if it is there or not, but if you were to go up into the mountains where it is cooler and then go down a long grade, your engine would cool to where the oil was accumulating water and acids. |
Right, that makes sense. I guess it's troubling knowing that he took the thermostat and cable off anyways because I drive this bus fairly frequently on long distance camping trips. A lot of the times up to Alabama Hills and Mammoth in the winter to visit hot springs, snowboard, etc. It would seem essential to have that on no matter what climate you were in because cars are meant to be driven. |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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one end of the spring - the one on the left in the photo sits under and against the bump out in the shroud. That is correct on yours. The other end wraps around the lever. The spring gets wound about one turn to hold it full open - that is true whether the thermostat is present or not. When you add a thermostat and cable it pulls and winds the spring when cold and allows it to fully open when hot.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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narfro
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2017
Posts: 93
Location: Santa Barbara
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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| SGKent wrote: |
one end of the spring - the one on the left in the photo sits under and against the bump out in the shroud. That is correct on yours. The other end wraps around the lever. The spring gets wound about one turn to hold it full open - that is true whether the thermostat is present or not. When you add a thermostat and cable it pulls and winds the spring when cold and allows it to fully open when hot.
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I'm trying to get a better picture, but can't seem to do it. The spring arm does sit underneath the bump. It doesn't sit against that bump though. It's loose and can move around freely like there is no tension at all. |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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yellow side. Where is the loop? Is it there or broken off? If it is there wind the spring one turn.
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Abscate
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Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:31 am Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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If it isn’t under tension it isn’t opening the flaps, which is bad. Overheating begets oil leaks and big engine bills, so sort that out.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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| Yep....when you blow the picture up....the spring arm does look like it IS making contact. If so.....and if as Abscate mentioned....if it has tension on it.....at least its safe. Ray |
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KentABQ
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Joined: September 11, 2016
Posts: 2406
Location: Albuquerque NM
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: 1.7 Pancake Engine running way too hot |
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A video call with Robbie of AirSchooled.com would walk you through the check of the flaps. His rates are incredibly reasonable.
He could also possibly address other issue(s) that are causing the heating problem. |
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