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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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 Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: New exhaust very close to rubber bellows ? |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Qldelsie wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
I haven't heard of any melted cooling boots yet from using either exhaust set up. |
This is the real key point of this discussion that Bobnotch makes - Has anyone every heard of a melted cooling boot using a VS (or any other) exhaust ? If not, then there is little point in fitting a heat shield. While it may make the rubber bellows last a bit longer, replacement units are available, so it is not impossible to replace them.
G |
When the OTT (Over The Top) set up first came out, it got the nick name of bellows burner, but we haven't heard anything about them burning any bellows boots in the 10 to 15 years they've been around. Not from the original Kymco version, all the way thru the ISP West version.
I can see why VW added a heat shield to their muffler, as it was an equal length tube design that the ends ended inside the can, and held a lot of heat. I know Russ had pics of the stock muffler cut open (quite a few of us have seen it), showing the inside of it. |
To be fair - people don't usually invest the time to create a post to simply say "This thing sucks...that is all". If the bellows boot did get cooked dry, was probably to blame for 'being old' because I doubt the majority of people who install a new exhaust also replace the bellows boot at the same time and then monitor how long it lasts. Hell, I've had to replace a fairly new bellows boot simply because I was in too much of a hurry to get it all back together and tore it - they're not all that durable to begin with.
How did the OTT get the nickname if it didn't happen? I'd venture to guess that most people who have these cars don't post on this site - and of those that do, there are only a handful of vocal people out of the total population. |
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pgslaughter
Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2005
Posts: 109
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: New exhaust very close to rubber bellows ? |
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| I think if anyone is going to get one and monitor it, it would be a samba member! It does surprise me the amount of people in our local club that have never heard of thesamba, however. |
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Chupa7hingy
Samba Member
Joined: May 05, 2020
Posts: 54
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: New exhaust very close to rubber bellows ? |
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| Qldelsie wrote: |
I will watch out for it when I put the engine back in.
What year is your notch, Chupa7hingy ?
G |
Its a 65. We mocked the VS one up on the bench while building the engine and all looked well. Put it in, and it needed the adjustment. Not a big deal for us, as we had access to the tools and materiel to do it, but I'd have been a little upset if I was a weekend wrench and my skill was limited to bolt-on only. Still, the end product looks and sounds great, so no complaints from me. |
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EasternNotch
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2006
Posts: 634
Location: Boston Metro West
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2020 4:33 am Post subject: Re: New exhaust very close to rubber bellows ? |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Qldelsie wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
I haven't heard of any melted cooling boots yet from using either exhaust set up. |
This is the real key point of this discussion that Bobnotch makes - Has anyone every heard of a melted cooling boot using a VS (or any other) exhaust ? If not, then there is little point in fitting a heat shield. While it may make the rubber bellows last a bit longer, replacement units are available, so it is not impossible to replace them.
G |
When the OTT (Over The Top) set up first came out, it got the nick name of bellows burner, but we haven't heard anything about them burning any bellows boots in the 10 to 15 years they've been around. Not from the original Kymco version, all the way thru the ISP West version.
I can see why VW added a heat shield to their muffler, as it was an equal length tube design that the ends ended inside the can, and held a lot of heat. I know Russ had pics of the stock muffler cut open (quite a few of us have seen it), showing the inside of it. |
To be fair - people don't usually invest the time to create a post to simply say "This thing sucks...that is all". If the bellows boot did get cooked dry, was probably to blame for 'being old' because I doubt the majority of people who install a new exhaust also replace the bellows boot at the same time and then monitor how long it lasts. Hell, I've had to replace a fairly new bellows boot simply because I was in too much of a hurry to get it all back together and tore it - they're not all that durable to begin with.
How did the OTT get the nickname if it didn't happen? I'd venture to guess that most people who have these cars don't post on this site - and of those that do, there are only a handful of vocal people out of the total population. |
I had a tri-mil OTT on my Notch for years. It fit correctly didn't melt the bellows but I wanted back to stock for other reasons.
-Lucas
_________________
1964 Notchback
1966 Squareback
1969 Type 34 Ghia
1969 Fastback
1989 Doka AFN TDI |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2020 9:06 am Post subject: Re: New exhaust very close to rubber bellows ? |
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| Chupa7hingy wrote: |
| Qldelsie wrote: |
I will watch out for it when I put the engine back in.
What year is your notch, Chupa7hingy ?
G |
Its a 65. We mocked the VS one up on the bench while building the engine and all looked well. Put it in, and it needed the adjustment. Not a big deal for us, as we had access to the tools and materiel to do it, but I'd have been a little upset if I was a weekend wrench and my skill was limited to bolt-on only. Still, the end product looks and sounds great, so no complaints from me. |
What did you have to modify? Wondering if it's the same thing I ran into on my car... |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22422
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2020 10:23 am Post subject: Re: New exhaust very close to rubber bellows ? |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
I found the photos in another thread, so here you go:
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Thank You Phil. I didn't know if it disappeared like a lot of Russ' other pics did or not. But, you can see why VW added the heat shield to their set up.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22422
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2020 10:30 am Post subject: Re: New exhaust very close to rubber bellows ? |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
To be fair - people don't usually invest the time to create a post to simply say "This thing sucks...that is all". If the bellows boot did get cooked dry, was probably to blame for 'being old' because I doubt the majority of people who install a new exhaust also replace the bellows boot at the same time and then monitor how long it lasts. Hell, I've had to replace a fairly new bellows boot simply because I was in too much of a hurry to get it all back together and tore it - they're not all that durable to begin with.
How did the OTT get the nickname if it didn't happen? I'd venture to guess that most people who have these cars don't post on this site - and of those that do, there are only a handful of vocal people out of the total population. |
I think that the nick name came from those on the type 3 list, who took 1 look at it and decided it was too close to the bellows, without actually trying it or even using it. The whole thing about the OTT was to hide the muffler while using a header exhaust. In talking with those who actually bought and used it, it didn't really help with ground clearance, due to the flange set up extending too far out.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2020 10:36 am Post subject: Re: New exhaust very close to rubber bellows ? |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
To be fair - people don't usually invest the time to create a post to simply say "This thing sucks...that is all". If the bellows boot did get cooked dry, was probably to blame for 'being old' because I doubt the majority of people who install a new exhaust also replace the bellows boot at the same time and then monitor how long it lasts. Hell, I've had to replace a fairly new bellows boot simply because I was in too much of a hurry to get it all back together and tore it - they're not all that durable to begin with.
How did the OTT get the nickname if it didn't happen? I'd venture to guess that most people who have these cars don't post on this site - and of those that do, there are only a handful of vocal people out of the total population. |
I think that the nick name came from those on the type 3 list, who took 1 look at it and decided it was too close to the bellows, without actually trying it or even using it. The whole thing about the OTT was to hide the muffler while using a header exhaust. In talking with those who actually bought and used it, it didn't really help with ground clearance, due to the flange set up extending too far out. |
Huh, okay...perhaps named for a perceived problem vs an actual problem. Thanks for the explanation! |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22422
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2020 10:46 am Post subject: Re: New exhaust very close to rubber bellows ? |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
To be fair - people don't usually invest the time to create a post to simply say "This thing sucks...that is all". If the bellows boot did get cooked dry, was probably to blame for 'being old' because I doubt the majority of people who install a new exhaust also replace the bellows boot at the same time and then monitor how long it lasts. Hell, I've had to replace a fairly new bellows boot simply because I was in too much of a hurry to get it all back together and tore it - they're not all that durable to begin with.
How did the OTT get the nickname if it didn't happen? I'd venture to guess that most people who have these cars don't post on this site - and of those that do, there are only a handful of vocal people out of the total population. |
I think that the nick name came from those on the type 3 list, who took 1 look at it and decided it was too close to the bellows, without actually trying it or even using it. The whole thing about the OTT was to hide the muffler while using a header exhaust. In talking with those who actually bought and used it, it didn't really help with ground clearance, due to the flange set up extending too far out. |
Huh, okay...perhaps named for a perceived problem vs an actual problem. Thanks for the explanation! |
Yup. perceived versus actual problem.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Chupa7hingy
Samba Member
Joined: May 05, 2020
Posts: 54
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2020 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: New exhaust very close to rubber bellows ? |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
| Chupa7hingy wrote: |
| Qldelsie wrote: |
I will watch out for it when I put the engine back in.
What year is your notch, Chupa7hingy ?
G |
Its a 65. We mocked the VS one up on the bench while building the engine and all looked well. Put it in, and it needed the adjustment. Not a big deal for us, as we had access to the tools and materiel to do it, but I'd have been a little upset if I was a weekend wrench and my skill was limited to bolt-on only. Still, the end product looks and sounds great, so no complaints from me. |
What did you have to modify? Wondering if it's the same thing I ran into on my car... |
Sorry, I haven't set up to upload photos yet, but I'll do my best to explain. The stock connections have some side to side play, to account for various case/head widths. However, there is little, if any, up and down play. When we put the motor in with the new trans mounts (likely the cause of a little more "up" due to not being worn in yet), the tailpipe hit the rear splash apron. It still cleared the bellow, but as you can picture, if it won't clear the apron, it's pretty close to the bellow. That was not really our concern at the time...clearing the apron was.
So my father-in-law made up some exhaust spacers out of some stainless stock for the top flanges, which effectively tilted the muffler downward, clearing the apron (and by extension, putting it further from the bellow). We haven't yet driven on the road, but in the driveway, idling for a while, the bellow seems to be just fine. Warm, but it's just fine.
This whole conversation reminds me of a science experiment I did as a kid. Take a paper cup and put a little water in it. Then, try and burn a hole in the bottom with a match/lighter. You can't do it, not with the water still in it and under the flash point of the paper. It's not exactly the same as water and air have different properties, but I would think with all the cool air being sucked though the bellow, it would keep the bellow from reaching a "melting" temperature, unless it were VERY close or touching. Just my $.02. |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 8:53 am Post subject: Re: New exhaust very close to rubber bellows ? |
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| Chupa7hingy wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
| Chupa7hingy wrote: |
| Qldelsie wrote: |
I will watch out for it when I put the engine back in.
What year is your notch, Chupa7hingy ?
G |
Its a 65. We mocked the VS one up on the bench while building the engine and all looked well. Put it in, and it needed the adjustment. Not a big deal for us, as we had access to the tools and materiel to do it, but I'd have been a little upset if I was a weekend wrench and my skill was limited to bolt-on only. Still, the end product looks and sounds great, so no complaints from me. |
What did you have to modify? Wondering if it's the same thing I ran into on my car... |
Sorry, I haven't set up to upload photos yet, but I'll do my best to explain. The stock connections have some side to side play, to account for various case/head widths. However, there is little, if any, up and down play. When we put the motor in with the new trans mounts (likely the cause of a little more "up" due to not being worn in yet), the tailpipe hit the rear splash apron. It still cleared the bellow, but as you can picture, if it won't clear the apron, it's pretty close to the bellow. That was not really our concern at the time...clearing the apron was.
So my father-in-law made up some exhaust spacers out of some stainless stock for the top flanges, which effectively tilted the muffler downward, clearing the apron (and by extension, putting it further from the bellow). We haven't yet driven on the road, but in the driveway, idling for a while, the bellow seems to be just fine. Warm, but it's just fine.
This whole conversation reminds me of a science experiment I did as a kid. Take a paper cup and put a little water in it. Then, try and burn a hole in the bottom with a match/lighter. You can't do it, not with the water still in it and under the flash point of the paper. It's not exactly the same as water and air have different properties, but I would think with all the cool air being sucked though the bellow, it would keep the bellow from reaching a "melting" temperature, unless it were VERY close or touching. Just my $.02. |
A different issue than what I ran into on my car - on mine, it 'fit' the apron cut out from a vertical perspective but did not adjust to the left side of the car enough to clear the right side of the apron cut out. Entirely possible it was my 64 because the apron is tweaked BUT it also didn't fit the 65N that I had at the time and that apron was damn near perfect. Same issue - didn't adjust to the 'left' enough to clear the apron. Bone stock engine in both cases. The second go 'round with the VS was on my first 1904 and I had the same problem - not enough 'side to side' adjustment - easily attributed to the larger engine at first blush if I hadn't experienced the fit issue on the stock engine.
I get what you're saying about the ability to melt the bellows with the muffler - to be clear, I didn't state that the exhaust would melt the bellows but that the heat from it would slowly cook the moisture out of the rubber. There are, obviously, lots of factors in how quickly this would happen - one being the composition of the rubber used to make the boot. I don't know what that is but I do know I've removed very crunchy bellows boots off of Type 3's that have crumbled as they were being removed - don't know enough about their specific history to state what the contributing factors were but I have seen it, touched it and replaced it more than once.
I have a larger engine and a much larger exhaust than stock now - I will be keeping an eye on how the bellows boot reacts and decide for myself if the exhaust is as big a contributing factor as I suspect. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't but time will certainly determine the outcome. |
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OKType3Tim 
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011
Posts: 279
Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2020 8:27 am Post subject: Re: New exhaust very close to rubber bellows ? |
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Regarding the Tri-Mill OTT: I had the Tri-Mill sitting on the shelf for several years. But when I decided to use it on the T34; there was no way that the muffler would fit.
So I cut it off and fabricated my own solution using the smallest "Thrush" glass pack that is available. Thus, I got clearance from both the air boot and the rear valance. (The next couple pictures shows it prior to going to the powder coat shop.)
At final installation, there is a clamp that provides support so that this mass isn't vibrating all over the place.
[And yes for the sharp eyed: I still have to go back and install the aircraft hose duct on this side of the car.]
_________________
'69 Squareback restoration
'69 Fastback restoration
'66 Type34 |
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