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My 412 these days..
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 10:26 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Hi Ray,

Thanks for the feedback.

1) The car indeed has an empty tank and nothing in the trunk, nor does it have a front bumper yet or any of the A/C apparatus attached. So, that makes sense.

2) Regarding the rear shocks... I think I screwed up. I read one of your posts regarding rear shocks. (if memory serves me right, they are for an Econoline). I must have bought heavy-duty ones. As I recall, when it was on the road, the back hit bumps like giant bricks. I need softer shocks in the rear. Recommendations would be great. I'd like a soft, yet non-bouncy ride.

So.. all that said, I wonder if I should do anything to change its stance? I think it looks awkward, but... I am restoring the car to 100% stock, so I don't want it to be something it wasn't designed as.
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1973 412 Wagon
1974 Autostick SB
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
Hi Ray,

Thanks for the feedback.

1) The car indeed has an empty tank and nothing in the trunk, nor does it have a front bumper yet or any of the A/C apparatus attached. So, that makes sense.

2) Regarding the rear shocks... I think I screwed up. I read one of your posts regarding rear shocks. (if memory serves me right, they are for an Econoline). I must have bought heavy-duty ones. As I recall, when it was on the road, the back hit bumps like giant bricks. I need softer shocks in the rear. Recommendations would be great. I'd like a soft, yet non-bouncy ride.

So.. all that said, I wonder if I should do anything to change its stance? I think it looks awkward, but... I am restoring the car to 100% stock, so I don't want it to be something it wasn't designed as.


You have "0" options for 100% stock on the front end. If you somehow find NOS factory "wet" inserts for the struts.....they MUST come with the exact correct oil and exact volume for fill or they will never work properly and can cause not only the original nose high attitude....but an excessive one as they overpump the upper circuit. This will eventually blow out the top o-ring causing oil loss.

And....100% of any NOS aftermarket strut "cartridges" you find....will be shot. These would be Boge, Kyb, Sachs or Monroe. The last mfg of these cartridges....was KYB. They stopped production in 1989.

As for the rears.....yes....the correct shock is a KYB gas-a-just.....high pressure gas....with some extra spacers on the bottom eye....from a half-ton Ford econoline. If you use the onws from a,3/4 ton....they will give too hard of a ride unless you have the cargo space loaded.

The KYB's.....are virtually identical to the stock ride. If you have the correct shock and it is in fact to hard....check the date of mfg on the lower ene of the shock near the eye. Or call th3 mfg and inquire about packaging code. If they wre very old....say more thwn 7 years.....they can be bad/hard. Ray
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 7:12 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Good to know, Ray. Thanks. If there are any leads on the softer ride rear shocks, please PM me.

Today I was able to get the left tail assembly wired up and mounted on the car. There were a lot of pig tails, and pretty much a hack job from one of the PO's.

I was able to sort through my box of wires and match the correct color codes to some of the broken wires and re-attach them to the tail light housing. Also, put new seals around the housing to body as well as lens to housing.

Looks pretty good. Tomorrow I plan on hooking up the license plate lights, rear defroster wires and right tail light assembly. This should be interesting b/c the rear hatch is a replacement, so I'll have to run the wiring into it.

Overall, a productive day.

One item to note: Not all of the wire colors in my car correspond with those in the 1973 USA Wiring Diagram here on the Samba. I had to trace the tail light wires back to the fuse box, check for continuity and make sure I had the right wires attached.

I hope this isn't a sign of things to come. Hopefully, the dashboard wiring is consistent with the diagram. I'll keep you posted.

(My car's production date is 2/73) with D-Jet.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
Good to know, Ray. Thanks. If there are any leads on the softer ride rear shocks, please PM me.

Today I was able to get the left tail assembly wired up and mounted on the car. There were a lot of pig tails, and pretty much a hack job from one of the PO's.

I was able to sort through my box of wires and match the correct color codes to some of the broken wires and re-attach them to the tail light housing. Also, put new seals around the housing to body as well as lens to housing.

Looks pretty good. Tomorrow I plan on hooking up the license plate lights, rear defroster wires and right tail light assembly. This should be interesting b/c the rear hatch is a replacement, so I'll have to run the wiring into it.

Overall, a productive day.

One item to note: Not all of the wire colors in my car correspond with those in the 1973 USA Wiring Diagram here on the Samba. I had to trace the tail light wires back to the fuse box, check for continuity and make sure I had the right wires attached.

I hope this isn't a sign of things to come. Hopefully, the dashboard wiring is consistent with the diagram. I'll keep you posted.

(My car's production date is 2/73) with D-Jet.


Ok....which shocks do you have on the rear....and where did you get them? And....did you check the date on them?

With oil shocks.....the age is not really an issue except that if they get far too old they will die early when the rod seal gets old, hard and leaks...but they will work perfectly because there are no rubber seals inside. They are piston rings in polished bores.

Really "pretty much" the same with gas shocks construction wise...except they have a floating piston divider with a rubber seal...to keep the gas separated to whichever side it was designed to be on.....usually on the top.

The problem with age is that nitrogen molecules...while slightly larger than oxygen molecules....are still a pretty small molecule. The seal on the floating divider hardens up, the nitrogen leaks t both sides....causing slightly harder compression and rebound....and then foams because the pressure is lower overall....causing the shocks to feel hard as a rock.

The KYB gas-a-justs....are really almost exact to actual Sachs factory gas shocks. They ARE 100% exact to the kYB's that were made specific to the 411/412. They are the same shock. They only have a different part number because the width of the bushing at the bottom is different.

Both the stock gas shock for the wagon and teh stock oil shock for sedans....are some of the hardest valved shocks I have ever seen. Not that they ride hard....but they are seriously damped. They have to be because the shock is mounted so far fro the vertex of the trailing arm and that generates serious leverage.

These should not create a hard ride. I have driven them extensively on 411, 412 of all body styles. Also....I do not know what you consider a "hard ride". These cars are not supposed to be modern car soft. If the rear gets too soft...it "steers" the front.

OK....another possibility. Again...where did you get your KYB's? If they are old....and shot....this can be causing the rear to droop...and lifting the front excessively...and THIS will give you a hard ride in the ride.

So...lets say you have old KYB's. The part # should be the KYB 5410 for the 1/2 to E-100 and E-150 econoline.

Lets say you want to try something softer either way. I would suggest....the KYB GR-2 (now called the Excell-G)....for the same vehicle. That is a combination gas/oil shock. Low pressure gas. Softer.

There could be several brands that work well but I have not tried them. While i have never run the Excell-G on teh back end of a 411/412....they are the right physical dimensions, are good shocks....and are a known quantity softer than the KYB gas-adjust.

The part # is 344069
This is for the front of the 1975-1983 E-100 and 1975-1991 E-150.

They are $18.36 each at Rockauto right now

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford,1980,e-10...orber,7556

By the way...if you order these....make SURE they are branded as "Excel-G" and are painted black. If they come in branded as the "GR-2" and are painted silver....they are about 7-8 years old.


Ray
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Thanks Ray, I'm on the hunt for the softer shocks now. I really appreciate the detailed write-up.

Now, this is going to be one of my most challenging projects, I suspect.

The fuse box was hanging from a zip tie when I got the car. This is what I'm dealing with:


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Any suggestions on how to attack this would be greatly appreciated. I think the most pressing question is Where and how does the fuse box mount?

It appears that the fuse block itself has no visible mounting brackets nor do I see on the car itself any tabs/screw holes where I should hang this thing.

My second question is does anyone have any suggestions where to buy replacement hoses for the under-dash ductwork? The little plastic hoses have disintegrated. It also looks like I'll need to install these hoses concurrently with the wiring. Thanks!
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1974 Autostick SB
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

This is where the fuse panel goes.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=718083&highlight=fuse+box

Ray
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Thanks Ray.

I was looking at that, but cannot seem to find any mounting points for the panel.

This is the right side by the pedal cluster:
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The left side of the car (pillar)
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A look straight-on at the firewall
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Am I missing a part or mounting bracket?
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

I think I know why there is no 'parcel' tray or bracket to hold the fuse box...

The A/C Evaporator/Fan/Vent assembly. The left hand vent appears to tuck up in the corner where the fuse box goes.

So, I think I'm going to have to come up with an alternate way to mount this thing.
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
I think I know why there is no 'parcel' tray or bracket to hold the fuse box...

The A/C Evaporator/Fan/Vent assembly. The left hand vent appears to tuck up in the corner where the fuse box goes.

So, I think I'm going to have to come up with an alternate way to mount this thing.


No....you missed it! Laughing

There is no parcel tray or bracket holding the fuse panel. On the far lleft side....just forward of the front edge of the door.....there is a rectangular cut out in the carpet. Behind it....is a rectangular cut out in the sheet metal of the car.

See the three nubs with the line drawn between tbem in my link?.....the fuse panel goes behind the bulkhead just forward of the left door jamb. Not on the pedal cluster.

Go tjrough that link again carecully. If need be I will post more pictures. Also read the text....and understand that the fuse panel is typically pulled out because water leaks from the lower left corner or the windshield and runs down the wires...soaking the fuse block.

Ray
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 8:37 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Thanks for the feedback, Ray.

I've pulled the carpet back all the way and combed through the link and your well-designed diagrams and cannot seem to find any type of metal/mounting that the fuse panel would attach to.

I could send some more pictures if necessary.

Any pictures/measurements as to where the fuse blocks mounts would be greatly appreciated. I am going to start the re-wiring process now and hopefully someone could give me some guidance as to the mounting, would be a big help.

- Ron
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, Ray.

I've pulled the carpet back all the way and combed through the link and your well-designed diagrams and cannot seem to find any type of metal/mounting that the fuse panel would attach to.

I could send some more pictures if necessary.

Any pictures/measurements as to where the fuse blocks mounts would be greatly appreciated. I am going to start the re-wiring process now and hopefully someone could give me some guidance as to the mounting, would be a big help.

- Ron


It does not "attach to".....anything. The entire fuse panel slips behind the side bulkhead beneath the A pillar. There are no screws or brackets.

There are three nubs on each side of the fuse panel that are molded in. These straddle each side of the metal panel. It slides in from above. The metal panel has a small clip in the front that engages in the center of the fuse panel.

I will take some more pictures this morning. Ray



OK. I'm not sure how I can clarify this any better.

Orientation shot:

Open the left/drivers door. Look just inside of the windlacing at the carpeted kick panel at the bottom edge of the dash.

See that square opening....with carpet piping around it?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


A closer look at the opening with a red dotted line around it:

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When I pull the carpet back, see the black sheet meatl behind it that the carpet is glued to?


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here I have outlined the cut out in the sheet metal where the fuse panel goes with a yellow dotted line:

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You saw the three lugs at each end of the fuse panel in my other thread. You will see them again in a minute. Here is a look at the front of the fuse panel:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If you pull the carpet down further you will see a notch in the center of the fuse panel opening...where there should be a steel spring clip. Mine is missing:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is how the fuse panel installs:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Keeping the fuse panel a level and vertical as possible...you push it up under the dash while moving it back toward the outside of the car. THE FUSE PANEL GOES BEHIND THE METAL BULKHEAD.

The opening is notched on each top corner so that the lower lug of the three at each end more easily clears the top....and slips behind it.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now that the first/lower lug at each end has slipped BEHIND the panel...straighten the fuse panel up vertically so that the 2nd.middle lug contacts the metal panel and stays on your side of the metal panel.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Notice that while inserting the first/lower lug...we lifted the fuse panel up high enough under the dash that the relays are now behind the Metal bulkhead.


Here it is 90% installed. Note that both the first/lower and 3rd/top lugs are BEHIND the edge of the panel and only the 2nd/middle lug is on the outside visible to you.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



OK...install is finished here....but the middle tab in my picture should be BEHIND the bulkhead. Because my steel spring clip is missing it has a tendency to slip over the outside.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The only way you could not have this cutout for your fuse panel is if someone removed the sheet metal panel from behind teh carpet. It is an insert panel that covers the defroster tubes where these connect at the heater channels and rise up to the side defroster and windscreen register.

The AC system had nothing to do with this. It was a dealer installed system. They removed the parcel tray for AC install....I have several if you need one....and the left hand end of the under dash evaporator coil assembly had a cut in it...and a hinge....that allowed moving the left end of the coil manifold out of the way to access the fuse panel....so they were in the same place...behind the bulkhead...on AC models.



Ray
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Quote:
It does not "attach to".....anything. The entire fuse panel slips behind the side bulkhead beneath the A pillar. There are no screws or brackets.

There are three nubs on each side of the fuse panel that are molded in.


I'd appreciate the pictures, I've been looking all around the A-pillar and don't see anything. The pictures will be a godsend. I appreciate anyone's photos of the fuse box and mounting.

On a brighter side...

While taking a pause from the fuse box, I decided at attack my speedometer. The plastic detail piece on the needle fell off, and only the odometer worked (at times).

It was in pretty rough shape:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


After removing the ring and soaking the black plastic trim, I sloooowly pried off the needle, took the face plate off and replaced the cracked plastic gear thanks to a donor. I took that opportunity to set the odometer back to zero since I had to pull all the little wheels off. I cleaned the gummed off grease and applied some special lubricant that I had set aside and everything seems to work nicely now.

Here is the finished product:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm pretty pleased with the final product. If anyone needs any assistance with their speedometers, feel free to reach out. I'll be glad to help where I can.

Now off to the fusebox.
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 7:06 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Ray - I can't thank you enough for that detailed diagram and explanation of how the fuse panel mounts. After carefully reviewing your pictures, I now know that one of the PO's somehow removed that metal panel under the carpet. I have no idea if it was welded or bolted/screwed in, but it is definitely gone.

This is what mine looks like:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


On the bottom you can see the plastic housing where the air hoses come up from the floor. There is nothing covering it. Hopefully, I'll be able to find one of these things. At least I have your photos to explain to parts-sellers what exactly I'm looking for. How it connects will be interesting.

I finally attacked the wiring a little bit today.

It went from this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


To this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It doesn't seem like much, but for me... that was a day's work. The wiring on this car is really challenging. One thing I've learned is that NO ONE BOOK HAS AN ACCURATE DIAGRAM for my 1073 412. I had to look at Clymer, Haynes and the color diagram here on The Samba AND make some intelligent guesses.

Most of the time, I had to trace each wire from end to end. When I found the correct wire, often times the color coding was off. I have no idea why it's like that. I've wired buses, beetles and a Thing... all with no problems.

I'll keep you posted as to how the wiring job progresses. It's going to be interesting. Again, thanks for your help. It keeps me motivated on this project!
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

On the subject of fuse panels... what is the middle relay for? Is that the high/low beam dimmer?
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 7:58 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
On the subject of fuse panels... what is the middle relay for? Is that the high/low beam dimmer?


Just going off memory.....the relays from left to right:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


1. The clear see-through relay on the left is an aftermarket (maybe Bosch) emergency Flasher/turn signal relay.

2. The little cube in the middle ...I will have to look. If its a two pin its the key buzzer. If its a four or five pin its the horn relay. The fat cube on the right is the high/low headlight relay.

There is one relay missing which is probably the key buzzer.

You NEED that piece of sheet metal. It attaches with sheet metal screws. It covers the two duct pipes you also need that feed your defroster from teh heater duct. Without that sheet metal you have no place to mount the fuse panel and ...and every time you bump the carpet with your foot you will crush the heater pipes.

The part you need is #14. You can see the cutout for the fuse box in the diagram.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This would be a junkyard part. Three sheet metal screws.

And...really....its just a cover to give a solid wall for the carpet. You could make one.
Ray
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Moving post to here:

Alll of the plastic under-dash hoses that go to that air box in the center and lead to the front vents, etc., are toast. Any ideas where to find replacement hoses that would be a good match?
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
Moving post to here:

Alll of the plastic under-dash hoses that go to that air box in the center and lead to the front vents, etc., are toast. Any ideas where to find replacement hoses that would be a good match?


I will have to measure....but long in the past I have replaced a few using the same material that is used in a few other locations. Those would be black or dark olive drab color, corrugated aluminized, paper covered tubes similar to what is used in the engine compartment for connecting to the auxiliary heater fan.

Like this

http://www.daycoproducts.com/dayco%C2%AE-emission-control-carburetor-pre-heater-duct-hose

This is just an ad from Summit...but if you check there they should have a range of diameters.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/dac-80098?seid=...6AEALw_wcB

Ray
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