Almost stranded on an island, think my starter is toast.

[Technut27]

Maybe a long story but my wife has heard this a bunch already. This is my first adventure to starter territory.

I was 3 days away from flat towing my 74 to a ferry to spend the weekend wandering around an island in Lake Erie for a little post lock down time away from the house. Went out to start it up, turned the key, lights and dash light up like always and nothing from the starter. OK weird, that has never happened before and just had it out a couple weeks ago. It has been kind of a dream the past year, I'm mostly down to cosmetic items to tinker with.

I had the battery cables off since so I go give them a wiggle and make sure they are tight. Try again and it turns over and nearly starts but I was already backing off the key. Cool loose ground maybe, try again, nothing but dash lights. Top off the battery, nothing but lights.

I went through the check list, the battery is charged, cleaned the battery terminals and cables, never had trouble with the ignition switch before, no recent electrical work. I climb under and the wires going to the starter were really cruddy and oxidized. Took a wire brush to them and knocked a ton of dirt and corrosion off, gave them a wiggle. Turn the key and it turns right over but I couldn't let it start up on stands.

This is where I probably should have gotten a beer and called it a day.

Instead I go back under to clean them up some more, can't have problems over the weekend right? I find the insulation where the undercoating got on them was brittle and crumbling and pop a wire comes off.

At this point I'm annoyed but thinking OK, worn connector, take off the wires clean them up shrink wrap some new insulation, new connectors and away we go (maybe).

Tonight it started looking bad when I tried to take the nut off the post of the solenoid. It won't budge and I don't feel any threads left on it at all. I got a little movement on it (the stud turned I think not the nut ) and was able to get the other wire connectors freed up and a bunch of black crud rained on the floor seemingly from the solenoid behind the terminal.

Leaving me in this situation. Two wire connectors were corroded so those two wires are off, two remain on the terminal behind the seized nut. I don't think that nut is going to come off with any amount of penetrating oil and now the terminal has a bunch of play in it. There is some horizontal play but it doesn't pull out and it has play up and down.

- Am I in the market for a new starter? My hunch is that if I end up unscrewing the post to get the wires off there is no going back from that without pulling it anyway.

- I have read a bunch of posts and watched some videos repeatedly and it appears pretty straight forward to replace it, just a pita to get the nut behind the fan shroud? Watching a pro do it always looks so easy though.

I'm bummed and could use a little encouragement. Happy that I didn't have to tow it off an island but a little crushed that summer is here and my fun car is grounded until I sort this out.

This is after the first hit with the brush, I looked at the wiring diagram and see 4 on this post, 1 on the right hand one, the picture didn't quite capture that. I wouldn't be surprised at all if this is the original starter.

And after things started to go wrong:

[YDBD]

Starter isn't a bad job, yeah it's hard to get to the bolts, but once you get it out you can check the connectors and terminal.

I'd just snip the wires that are still connected after disconnecting the battery.

I'm more worried about your wiring, it looks like it got cooked a few times and needs to be replaced and that can be a job.
_________________
'56 pan Dune Buggy since '69
don't live in the past...but when I did:
'67 bug
'64 baja
'60 dune buggy
'73 Personenkraftwagen Type 182 "Thing"

[Technut27]

I thought it had that look too but the insulation is nice and pliable right up to the last inch or so. Its starts real nice since a thorough tune up a couple years ago but before then it was harder, maybe it was cranked to long along the way and got hot. They were caked with the undercoating and when I worked the wires it cracked the insulation came with it.

The tow bar and gear to pull it busted my Thing budget, unfortunately it might have to sit for a bit. But I guess that is time to get it pulled and the wires fixed up.

If i'm going through the trouble would there be any reason not to install a hard start relay and take the load off the ignition wires?

[YDBD]

Where does your battery sit? Is it in the engine compartment? If you have the proper cables you shouldn't need the relay as it's very short distance. More inclined to overheat the starter.

Pull the starter and check the terminal, you might be able to pull the back off of the solenoid and check the terminal from the inside on how it is connected and secured-maybe a bit of JB Weld can hold it in there for 10 more years.
_________________
'56 pan Dune Buggy since '69
don't live in the past...but when I did:
'67 bug
'64 baja
'60 dune buggy
'73 Personenkraftwagen Type 182 "Thing"

[Wildthings]

The post on the solenoid has likely been failing for quite a while causing the wires to get hot enough to fry their insulation. You obviously need a new starter solenoid or an entire starter, and you should install a new positive battery cable and then use waterproof splices to repair the ends of the other wires.

[mondshine]

My favorite tool for the fan shroud reach-around...

[74 Thing]

Make sure you strip those wires back far enough since I see corrosion on them and repair with proper gauge wire.

There is always push starting.

[RWK]

probably loose main cable from battery, if it loosens up and doesn't make good contact it sparks and arcs melting the stud making it impossible to remove nut, just got done fixing my sons 12v hydraulic pump motor for his dump trailer, stud was ok but melted the bushing that went through motor housing, (loose main cable), similar to your solenoid problem, I would remove it and clean and test outside car, look around for a repair shop, I know of 2 around me in S. MI starters last a long time, most failures are wire,bushing and switch related.
_________________
73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530

[Technut27]

I have a new starter coming and the plan is just that. Refresh the wires/connectors, new battery cable,etc.. then I can decide if I want to take a shot at rebuilding the old one. I have to pick up a long 17mm wrench still and look up the wire gauge for the connectors. That bolt wasn't hard to find at all with the oil bath removed, it got its first dose of penetrating oil tonight.

Does anyone have a favorite angle of attack on it? Remove the air cleaner to make room on the right side or down from above and avoid the wires/hoses?

[Technut27]

And maybe a quick sanity check because my before picture didn't capture the connections well. Looking at the diagram and other posts here there are 4 wires to terminal #30 and 1 to #50.

Green #5 in my picture is fine and using a push on connector on the far side, #50 on the diagram?

Red #1 is the positive battery cable on #30
Red #2 is still attached on #30
Red #3 was attached to #30
Red #4 is the one I broke off before I took the picture and goes back on #30

And now i know that if it was the diagnostic wire it wouldn't have mattered anyway

[Technut27]

This has seen better days, waiting on new ring connectors, a crimper, and some more cleaning to do and its re-assembly time.

[Technut27]

Finished up my starter project Friday night and have to say I was not prepared for just how different a new replacement would be! Being my first VW since my brother had a bug when I was little the old starter seemed "normal" enough to me, the car started after all. All the wires are cleaned, re-insulated, re-terminated, or replaced. Just have to put some dialectic grease on them to keep them this way.

[74 Thing]

Did you end up rebuilding the stater in your photo that is on the bench or did you replace it with another?

[Technut27]

Its replaced with a new Bosch SR15N, I've yet to look real close at the old one. It does have the self supported armature possibly making it a replacement from the original factory starter? I haven't cleaned it up to find the model #. The bushing looked brand new just dirty.

I didn't have to cut much off the wires to fix them up but with the new starter being so much smaller there wasn't a ton of slack.

One thing that slowed me down was I'm an computer/electronics repair guy so all of my terminals were too small for the large gauge wire plus I needed the 17mm. I went with the self sealing insulated ring connectors vs open barrel because I had a crimper for those.

Overall for my first go at it I'm pretty happy with the outcome. Only literally painful part was braking the top engine bolt nut loose. I had a nice bruise on my arm for days from the bad angle working the wrench.

[74 Thing]

A new starter is a lot better way to go then the rebuilt ones.

SR15N has two models, one is self supporting and the other needs a bushing. Both are smaller and a lot lighter then the originals.

Your wiring looks really good now.

[Technut27]

Thanks Already making my list for the next adventure refreshing the front seat bottoms and I need some new tracks. Had the car for 6 years so sometime between 6 and 46 years ago the floors were patched and the tracks didn't take that well.