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New turn signal flasher works ... almost
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Gundark
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:31 pm    Post subject: New turn signal flasher works ... almost Reply with quote

Bought my first bug back in October ... 1969. It runs well -- I love it.

It has an old 4-prong flasher that is getting kind of flaky. I bought this replacement 4-pring signal flasher from jbugs: https://www.jbugs.com/product/211953215C.html, thinking that it would be an easy drop in replacement. Well ... almost.

The old one was a Tung-sol, which doesn't appear to be made anymore. No idea how old it is:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The new one is a DNI ...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It has nice clear markings on the bottom, 49, 49a, K1, and 31:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


... the old one has a different set of markings, X, P, L, plus one unmarked terminal:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


From the diagrams here on the the Samba ...

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bug_68_69_usa.jpg
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bug_68_69_usa_key.jpg

... I assembled this information:

49A - blue & black/white/green, out to signal lamps
+ - white, G1, power (via emergency light switch)
KBL - blue/red, K3, turn signal warning light
31 - brown, ground

... then identified the wire colors attached to the old Tung-sol:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


... to create a cross reference of what each terminal was for, and what wire colors were used:

Tung-sol 559:
X - Blue & black/white/green
L - White
P - blue/green
unmarked - brown

Samba diagrams / Tung-sol cross reference:
49a / X - blue & black/white/green, out to signal lamps
+ / L - white, G1 power
KBL / P - blue/red or blue/green, turn signal light
31 / unmarked - brown, ground

My cross reference matched up nicely with this reference I found online:
http://www.netlink.net/mp/volks/htm/signals.htm
KBL (P) - Dashboard indicator
49 (+/L) - power
49a (X) - out to signals
31 (unmarked) - ground

... so now I'm thinking I've got what I need to map to the DNI, so I created a new reference for wiring up the new part:

DNI:
49a / X = 49a, Blue & black/white/green, signal lamps
+ / L = 49 - White, power
KBL / P = K1 - blue/green, turn signal indicator
31 = 31 - brown, ground

After doing this, I found that the jbugs web site has a terminal identifier [img]image[/img] ...
https://www.jbugs.com/product/211953215C.html

That matched my reference, so I felt confident, and plugged it into the car accordingly. The turn signals worked as expected, but the dashboard lamp doesn't light.

To verify, I traced the blue/green wite from the K1 (KBL / P) terminal back to the instrument cluster (very easy, since the flasher is only about six inches from the cluster), so it seems like that is connected correctly.

Now I'm at a loss. Is it possible I have a bad flasher relay, or have I made a mistake in my wiring?
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sb001
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: New turn signal flasher works ... almost Reply with quote

I don't think anyone has ever actually figured out what that K1 terminal is for on those DNI flasher relays- one would assume it's for the dash indicator blinkers but I've read at least 2-3 other posts regarding the same relay that says the dash indicators don't light when they are connected to it as they did connected to the KBL terminal on the original VW relay.

Anyway, just move your blue/red dash indicator wire over to the 49a terminal on the flasher relay and piggyback off that, that should work to get your dash indicator lights working.
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Gundark
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: New turn signal flasher works ... almost Reply with quote

sb001 wrote:
I don't think anyone has ever actually figured out what that K1 terminal is for on those DNI flasher relays- one would assume it's for the dash indicator blinkers but I've read at least 2-3 other posts regarding the same relay that says the dash indicators don't light when they are connected to it as they did connected to the KBL terminal on the original VW relay.

Anyway, just move your blue/red dash indicator wire over to the 49a terminal on the flasher relay and piggyback off that, that should work to get your dash indicator lights working.


Thank you. Too bad it's not just a drop-in replacement as advertised.

Does anyone know of a relay that is a closer match to the original VW part?
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sb001
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: New turn signal flasher works ... almost Reply with quote

Gundark wrote:
sb001 wrote:
I don't think anyone has ever actually figured out what that K1 terminal is for on those DNI flasher relays- one would assume it's for the dash indicator blinkers but I've read at least 2-3 other posts regarding the same relay that says the dash indicators don't light when they are connected to it as they did connected to the KBL terminal on the original VW relay.

Anyway, just move your blue/red dash indicator wire over to the 49a terminal on the flasher relay and piggyback off that, that should work to get your dash indicator lights working.


Thank you. Too bad it's not just a drop-in replacement as advertised.

Does anyone know of a relay that is a closer match to the original VW part?


Are you sure your bulb is making a nice tight connection in its socket in the speedometer? Remove the blue/red wire from the flasher relay and with key on ground that wire end out on the chassis and check to make sure the dash indicator bulb lights (it should light solid when you do this.) If so then it's the flasher relay causing the issue, if it doesn't light when you do this it's the bulb or holder (assuming your other dash warning lights work.) Jiggle it to make sure.

I am unsure which of any reproduction 4 prong flasher relays out there are the best but I am sure there are some good ones. Personally iif I couldn't get the K1 terminal to work on yours I would just reconnect the blue/red wire to the 49a terminal-- even VW went to doing that using a 3 prong flasher relay in the early 70s. If you must have a 4 prong closer to original there are plenty of good working used VW ones in the classifieds here.
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:35 am    Post subject: Re: New turn signal flasher works ... almost Reply with quote

One additional thing to check...
At the speedometer, check that the very bottom terminal (which is shared by the three indicator lamps at the bottom of the speedometer) has a wire that is 12v+ while the ignition switch is ON. This wire (usually daisy-chained off the fuel gauge or directly powered from the fuse box) provides a shared 12v+ to the three (3) bulb holders at the bottom of the speedometer. The wire coming off these three bulb holders each run to a switched ground which turns the respective bulbs ON.


The VW flasher relay has maintained the same terminal numbers and functions thru the years:
    #49 or + = 12v+ INPUT
    #31 = ground
    #49a = pulsing 12v+ OUTPUT
    KBL (only on 4-prong relay) = dedicated turn indicator lamp wire


Your old flasher relay should have had the same terminal numbers. That it didn't suggests it was not specifically designed for European cars. In fact, in most cases the "X" terminal (which is sometimes represented as "+") is typically the 12v+ INPUT to the relay. The "L is the "load" connections and is typically the OUTPUT. Yours was wired in reverse. This may be correct when using this relay for this application but it appears to be a workaround.


VW switched from the 4-prong flasher relay to the 3-prong sometime in the early '70s. From that point, the 3-prong became a replacement for the 4-prong. As suggested above, it only requires the blue/red wire be moved from the KBL terminal to the #49a terminal and it will work.

BTW, the blue/red wire is the turn indicator wire. The blue/green wire as shown in your pic is typically the OIL pressure switch wire. Could your wires be swapped around?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: New turn signal flasher works ... almost Reply with quote

Thanks, everyone for the replies. I bought some lug splitters and wired up the dash light to the same terminal as the output to the lights. Works fine.

One strange note; I discovered that if I had KBL attached to the dash indicator, the exterior lights worked, but ONLY when the engine wasn't running. More confirmation that this DNI part just doesn't work as advertised.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: New turn signal flasher works ... almost Reply with quote

I posted a wiring diagram I found that matches the wiring in my 1972 Super Beetle and I suspect that it is the same as the 1972 Standard Beetle built for the home market too.

It has the wiring for the three prong flasher. The wire colors are labeled and it is in black and white. So you don't have to rely on the printing to get the colors correct.

This diagram has none of the buzzers or other noise makers. So if you want to eliminate these things then this diagram will be very useful for you.
If this diagram is too small, the original is much larger and can be printed on 24" X 36" paper. If you are wondering about the extra lights in the headlights, it is the parking or side marker light. If the original bulb is replaced with an LED it is almost as bright as the low beam LED main light. It is great from city cruising or for a day time running light (DRL).


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:35 pm    Post subject: Re: New turn signal flasher works ... almost Reply with quote

Jbugs has this note about this issue with their flasher unit under tech tips.

"NOTE! If the Turn Signal Indicator Bulb does not blink when the turn signals are on, move the wire from the KBL terminal to the 49a terminal (use a piggyback or jumper connection) with the Black/White/Green wire."

I had the issue so tried it first with my alligator clip jumpers and all work perfectly so made the permanent jumper.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: New turn signal flasher works ... almost Reply with quote

I have a feeling that the "K1" terminal on the DNI relay is power (12v+) output to light up a bulb which is grounded on the other side. It probably pulses from 12v+ to OPEN. The JBugs description seems to support this... "KBL - Power To The Flash Bulb"
You can test this by connecting the blue/red wire to the "K1" terminal of the flasher relay and then remove the turn indicator bulb + bulb holder from the speedometer. Ground the outside of the bulb holder while you turn the turn signal switch ON in either direction. The bulb in the bulb holder should light up as a 5th turn signal lamp. This confirms the flasher relay is sending 12v+ out the "K1" terminal" which won't work for the normal speedometer indicator lamp circuit. Revert all the wiring to normal and connect the blue/red wire to the #49a terminal.


Unfortunately, this is not how the turn indicator lamp in the Beetle speedometer works. The turn indicator lamp gets its (12v+) power from the bottom wire of the speedometer and is looking for a switched ground to turn the bulb ON. It gets this via the #49a wires which run to the corner turn signal lamps or the original "KBL" terminal on the VW relay.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:45 pm    Post subject: Re: New turn signal flasher works ... almost Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
I have a feeling that the "K1" terminal on the DNI relay is power (12v+) output to light up a bulb which is grounded on the other side. It probably pulses from 12v+ to OPEN. The JBugs description seems to support this... "KBL - Power To The Flash Bulb"
You can test this by connecting the blue/red wire to the "K1" terminal of the flasher relay and then remove the turn indicator bulb + bulb holder from the speedometer. Ground the outside of the bulb holder while you turn the turn signal switch ON in either direction. The bulb in the bulb holder should light up as a 5th turn signal lamp. This confirms the flasher relay is sending 12v+ out the "K1" terminal" which won't work for the speedometer indicator lamp.


Unfortunately, this is not how the turn indicator lamp in the Beetle speedometer works. The turn indicator lamp gets its (12v+) power from the bottom wire of the speedometer and is looking for a switched ground to turn the bulb ON. It gets this via the #49a wires which run to the corner turn signal lamps or the original "KBL" terminal on the VW relay.

I was wondering if the 49a terminal oscillated between 12v and ground (in stead of OPEN) on the Jbug relays. That would explain why the indicator light flashes out of sequence with the turn signal lights.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:57 pm    Post subject: Re: New turn signal flasher works ... almost Reply with quote

Thing68 wrote:
I was wondering if the 49a terminal oscillated between 12v and ground (in stead of OPEN) on the Jbug relays. That would explain why the indicator light flashes out of sequence with the turn signal lights.

This is what I believed when I first looked at the wiring diagram, but there is a simpler (though less obvious) path to ground...
When the turn signal switch is centered (OFF) there is no path from the #49a terminal on the flasher to ground. But once the turn signal switch is turned ON (or the E-Flasher switch is turned ON) there is a path opened from the #49a to ground... thru the corner lamps. While the two 21W turn signal lamps are ON (L or R side) there is 3A (42W) of current flowing out the flasher relay to power the corner lamps.
When the flasher pulses OFF, the path to ground remains OPEN but the flasher relay no longer feeds current to the corner lamps. This opens a path for current (0.14A) coming from the 2W speedometer indicator lamp to flow thru the corner lamps to ground. The 2W passing thru the small indicator lamp is insufficient to warm up the two corner lamp filaments so they remain OFF even though there is current flowing thru them to ground.
Once the flasher relay turns ON once more, the positive current flow (12v+) out the #49a terminal stops the positive current flow (12v+) coming from the speedometer indicator lamp (if you think of the voltage as pressure, the pressure coming from the flasher relay is the same as the pressure coming from the speedometer indicator lamp). When you connect two circuits with the same potential voltage together, no current flows between the two. With no current flowing thru the speedometer indicator lamp, the lamp turns OFF.
This cycle repeats each time the flasher relay pulses, until the turn signal switch is turned OFF and the path to ground is closed.

So you see the flasher relay does not provide a path to ground, the turn signal switch (and E-Flasher switch) opens the path to ground. The flasher relay stops the flow of current thru the speedometer indicator lamp by flowing current OUT the #49a terminal at the same voltage as the voltage coming from the speedometer indicator lamp.

In the above example, it helps to imagine the #49a terminal as the outlet of a high-volume water pump capable of flowing a very large volume of water (greater current) at a set pressure (12psi). This pump is connected via a fire hose (large gauge wire) to a pair of water wheels (21-watt bulbs). At the pump outlet (#49a) there is a T-connector (multiple wires connected). You run a garden hose from the faucet to this T-connector. In this garden hose is a very small water wheel (small 2-watt lamp) that can be powered by the smaller volume of water flowing thru the garden hose. The pressure from the faucet is the same as the pressure from the pump (12psi), but the volume of water from the faucet is much less than the pump's volume.
When you turn both the pump and the faucet ON, the pump's greater volume powers the water wheels via the fire hose so they spin (bulb turns ON). The pressure coming out of the pump is the same as the faucet pressure (12psi) so no water flows from the faucet, thru the garden hose to the pump outlet. The small water wheel in the garden hose is not spinning (lamp OFF) as no water is flowing... even though there is 12psi of water pressure (voltage) at the small water wheel and in the garden hose.
When you momentarily turn the high-volume pump OFF, the pressure from the pump drops to zero and the water from the faucet can now flow thru the T-connector, thru the fire hose and out past the larger water wheels (to ground). The flow of water thru the garden hose causes the small water wheel to spin (speedometer indicator lamp turns ON). The current from the faucet flows past the larger water wheel but lacks the volume (current) to get them spinning. The larger water wheels are no longer spinning (corner lamps OFF) because the volume of water (current) from the garden hose is insufficient to power the wheel, but there is sufficient water flow trickling past the two wheels to keep the small water wheel spinning (ON)... until the water pump is turned ON once more. At which point the smaller water wheel stops spinning (turns OFF) while the two larger water wheels start spinning once more (corner lamps ON).
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'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:30 am    Post subject: Re: New turn signal flasher works ... almost Reply with quote

Yeah, that works. Another mystery of the VW electrical system solved.
Thanks again Ashman.
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