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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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 Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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Holy ****!
Am I dreaming or did dan just give this guy a compliment???
dan, seriously man I think you might need to head on down to the Emergency room and get checked out....
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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bug man nrg
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2004
Posts: 148
Location: usa & england
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:00 am Post subject: type1 or type4 |
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you all still do not get the big piture HP is just HP
how much will it cost to do a type4 $----- ?
how much will it cost to do a type1 $----- ?
forget EFI or turbo lets get down to the nitty gritty a stout air cool engine2300cc step up an put a figger on your work
what is the cost hard CASH figgers
EFI is only as good as the man tunnig it .You can spend 1000-2300 on a ECU
AEM
HALTEC
ELECTROMOTIVE
GEMS
SDS
EMERALD M3D
OMEX
PECTAL
MOTEC
and there is a lot more out there that that is not on the list power is not S--T with out control 
I do not build engines so that side i do not have much to say on that side of things but i will make the EFI run sweet on vw honda toyota ford or what ever come in YES i sm a car hoe it is all the same to me they all help pay the rent
But would like to no cash you would have to come with to do a 2300cc engine 
www.emeraldm3d.com
www.jenvey.com
I am now here in the USA full time now in florida an i am loving it .no more swow or ice for me  But i do miss home london england |
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oicdn
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2005
Posts: 279
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:02 am Post subject: |
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I've seen that Turbo Bob site like 7 million times....that does nothing for me...informative I guess, but meh....I'm guilty of drag racing, and even won a bracket racing comp in a 17 second car.....but in retrospect, WTF was I thinking? Drag racing sucks.....well, for daily drivers it does.
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danimal
Banned
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Daniel G wrote: |
First of all, the T1 is based on a design from the 1930's, whereas the T4 is based on a design from the 1960's |
the dual port type 1 came out after the type 4 did, so it is clearly not a 1930's design... how do you expect to establish credibility by posting bogus information, lol?
i will list other shortcomings of the type 4:
a dinky little oil pump that is smaller than the oil pump on the type 1.
the bastard offset type 4 head stud pattern puts unequal clamping pressure points on the head, which is why the factory was forced to use head gaskets on the type 4, but they did not work.
all models of type 4 motors used in all applications were plagued with head cracking and seat dropping that swamped the vw dealers and repair shops with warranty returns.
the type 4 junk parts industry includes things like 911 fan style shrouds that do not cool evenly or have any kind of thermostat system.
there is no cost effective type 4 performance head.
there is no selection of performance type 4 exhaust systems, and what little is out there costs far more than comparable type 1 exhaust systems.
there is no selection of type 4 performance intake manifolds, which is why jake raby did not use the type 4 intake manifold on his new heads.
there are very few shops that carry type 4 parts, stock or aftermarket.
there is no selection of aftermarket performance parts in general, because nobody makes product for an engine platform that has been out of production for decades.
etc.
lets not forget that whatever development happened with the type 4 during it's short 11 year lifespan never corrected the crippled exhaust port that makes it the pig motor that it is.
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danimal
Banned
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
Am I dreaming or did dan just give this guy a compliment??? |
we are talking about a guy who actually ran a decent number with a type 4 motor, that is not the behavior your typical type 4 poser
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danimal
Banned
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| oicdn wrote: |
| I'm guilty of drag racing, and even won a bracket racing comp in a 17 second car.....but in retrospect, WTF was I thinking? |
wtf are you thinking now? that a 17-second pass somehow actually makes you qualified to comment that the entire sport is bogus? please... 
get back to us as soon as you make a low 12-second pass in a bug.
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Ron Roberts
Samba Member
Joined: September 05, 2004
Posts: 7
Location: pleasant Hill CA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Easy Rider said:
I have not found any car that would truly chalenge me on a hill climb. Now I'm not saying that they are not out there, they are, it's just no one wants to pass me after I shut them down at 100mph going up a long climb.
You're on buddy! We can place a wager on it and who ever looses, Jake pays the bill!
Ron |
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oicdn
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2005
Posts: 279
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| danimal wrote: |
| oicdn wrote: |
| I'm guilty of drag racing, and even won a bracket racing comp in a 17 second car.....but in retrospect, WTF was I thinking? |
wtf are you thinking now? that a 17-second pass somehow actually makes you qualified to comment that the entire sport is bogus? please...
get back to us as soon as you make a low 12-second pass in a bug. |
I've made 12 second passes in my Civic AND in my Cavalier. Things that are ALOT harder to do than in a car that weighs nothing to begin with...either way, those bracket racing times, I was consistent in every run with my car within one-two tenths of a second.....lets see you do that over 7 runs....and the trophies and plaques to prove it....
So I think my opinion on drag racing being shit weighs JUST A LITTLE....
Speaking of doing 12 seconds...lets see you do one in a Civic...and spend UNDER $10K INCLUDING cost of car....yeah, didn't think so.
Now, your posts are totally worthless to me.....
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15599
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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What does a Civic have to do with this VW web site?
You think .200 of a second is consistant??? I ran three time trials last Saturday night within .007 seconds of each other.
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2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
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Daniel G
Crazy Amish Guy
Joined: April 23, 2004
Posts: 828
Location: Central Alabama Amish Country
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| danimal wrote: |
| Daniel G wrote: |
First of all, the T1 is based on a design from the 1930's, whereas the T4 is based on a design from the 1960's |
the dual port type 1 came out after the type 4 did, so it is clearly not a 1930's design... how do you expect to establish credibility by posting bogus information, lol?
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I put a word in bold so you could read it better... I never said it was a 30's design, I said it was based on a design from the 30's. The dual port was only an improvement on the basic design of the engine. The T4 and wasserboxer engines were designed by VW to improve the inherent weaknesses of the T1's design.
When I get the chance, I will see what I can find to disprove some of the T4 shortcomings you posted, though I really don't see the point of doing so, since I have no reason to prove to you that the T4 is a better engine. Just out of curiosity, why do you hate the T4 so much?
Daniel
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1966 Beetle
1971 Panel
1978 Westfalia Camper
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Ron Roberts
Samba Member
Joined: September 05, 2004
Posts: 7
Location: pleasant Hill CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:37 am Post subject: |
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He doesn't really hate the T4. It is just an old fued. Some Dan will have kids doing a T4 conversion and Dan will have to accept it. Even the Hatfields and the Macoys made friends with each other.
Ron |
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MN Mike Balvin
Samba Member
Joined: August 14, 2003
Posts: 80
Location: Minneapolis Minnesota
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:41 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Daniel G"][quote="danimal"]
| Daniel G wrote: |
The T4 and wasserboxer engines were designed by VW to improve the inherent weaknesses of the T1's design.
Daniel |
actually the waterboxer is a type 1 based engine built to fix the shortcomings of the type 4 engine. The vanagon was just too damn heavy for the T1, T4 and diesel rabbit motors they came with till '83. The wbx engine is an evolution of all vws engines since the 25 horser. The t4 is an evolution from the t1, and it went full circle back to the t1 with the wbx, but it picked up some t4 traits on the way:)
WBX traits from the T4 that I can think of- case material, lifters, flywheel and attatchment method, 94 bore, bigger oil capacity, oil filter (was also used on T1 based vanagon engines) oil seal on the crank pulley, sure I am forgetting some.
WBX traits from the type 1- stout little 69 mm crank in the 1.9 (later stroked to 76 in the 2.1), t1 case with t1 bore centers t1 main bearings in #2#3#4 and main studs imbedded in the case, and yes Dan type 1 style heads LOL
Whats my point? Both t1 and t4 have lots of positives as well as negatives and inherant problems that need to be overcome to use in a performance application. I like both, as long as they are not stock
I would tell you as someone who has worked on and rode in a big type 4 powered beetle, and built my own t1 powered bugs and busses: If you have the money for one of Jakes engines, and/or hate working on cars- get one, I only hear great things from those who have. If you like wrenching, and being able to buy parts from whoever you want, not just one or two companies stay t1. And I do know a guy who sold his type 4 2300+ cc engine to build a t1 2276. His car was driven all over, as a daily driver to college and the drag strip. But up here, the land is very flat, and humidty is higher, temps are lower, so your mileage may vary. |
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bug man nrg
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2004
Posts: 148
Location: usa & england
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:57 am Post subject: type 1or type1 |
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I still have not had a price on a stout 2200cc or bigger come on now type1 or type4 .the two engine's have there good and bad point's but bhp is just bhp .i have done the two engine's one the dyno turbo and na i do not see what the fuss is over .
i tell you what the two of you should have a engine build of with the to engine's being no bigger than 2300cc with no more than 10/1 CR on pump gas you can use what ever part you want BUT the engine can not cost more than $4000 then we can see what give more bang for the buck this way we will see what is king of the hill  |
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danimal
Banned
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:29 am Post subject: |
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nice post mike, let's hope that young daniel actually reads it and learns something... the only correction that i would make to your post is wrt to "only hearing great things" about raby motors... i have read stories about problems with jake raby engines, most significantly that mega high-$$$ type 4 that he sent to a guy in california who suffered thru a burned hole in the head just about the first time that he drove the motor... and it took him an unbelieveable 4 months to get warranty repair on the head??? i believe the thread is on speedsterowners.com, it's really ugly reading.
and then there is the failure of that raby type 4 at road atlanta, where it also burned a hole in the head before the first lap was over(?)... i'm just not impressed with type 4 motors, notice how these problems keep coming back to those type 4 junk heads.
oicdn... lol!
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danimal
Banned
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:36 am Post subject: |
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ron, lol! i'd rather see any kid of mine running a honda than a type 4
nice .007 lites, dave! i don't think that it will be fully appreciated out here, tho 
or rather, nice .007 consistency, lol! what kind of lites were you cutting?
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Gary L.
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2004
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Just my $.02, my cousin stabbed a 2276 type 1 into his 914, and another friend stabbed a rotary into his 914. Why? I dunno....
Bottom line, it's your $.
How much would it cost to convert a TIV into your car, do you want to go up hills in 4th gear, do you want to play at the dragstrip, are you gonna do 90 mph for hours?
I'm a racer, CHT, mph, going 90 all day, not downshifting, 30 mpg, etc. means nothing to me. Heck, my 97 Thunderbird does all of that, so what? Personally, my car spends more time on a trailer than it does driving, but it's set up to run 11's (PRA S/G), and it's a Racecar. If I wanted to drive it all over the place, I'd look into a Type IV or a small displacement Type I with a turbo. They seem to be able to run all day long also. Different stokes.
Let the flames begin.... |
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JamesT
Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2003
Posts: 605
Location: East Sooke, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| danimal wrote: |
nice post mike, let's hope that young daniel actually reads it and learns something... the only correction that i would make to your post is wrt to "only hearing great things" about raby motors... i have read stories about problems with jake raby engines, most significantly that mega high-$$$ type 4 that he sent to a guy in california who suffered thru a burned hole in the head just about the first time that he drove the motor... and it took him an unbelieveable 4 months to get warranty repair on the head??? i believe the thread is on speedsterowners.com, it's really ugly reading.
and then there is the failure of that raby type 4 at road atlanta, where it also burned a hole in the head before the first lap was over(?)... i'm just not impressed with type 4 motors, notice how these problems keep coming back to those type 4 junk heads.
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Dan, these are engines not meant to produce any significant power on either side. Heads will fail. Since they have to take the most significant range of temperature throughout their lives, they are one of the most likely failure point for an internal combustion engine, aircooled or otherwise. If I had a dollar for every stock dualport head I have sitting in the barn with a bad crack between the valve seats and sparkplug thread, I'd probably be able to afford a decent pair of heads. On the other hand, I've seen a lot of type IV heads with dropped valve seats or cracks, but these are all stock heads. You may call stock type IV heads junk, but in reality, type I heads aren't much better. Sure they can be made to flow better than type IV's, but they are still as prone to failure. No one runs stock heads when making performance engines, and aftermarket heads can still fail, the difference is that noone has yet to make an affordable aftermarket type IV head that can be made to flow effectively. I love type IV motors except for the heads, but I feel the gains in reliability and driveability outweigh whatever performance potential the heads take away.
I can finally give you real numbers on cost to build a 105bhp type IV motor for use in a type I now that I've got it together.
$100 - Junkyard 2.0L
$280 - Bearings, Piston Rings, Gaskets and seals. (Parts to rebuild engine)
$150 - Performance Cam shaft
$40 - Joe Cali's conversion manual
$110 - Header and Muffler
Free - heat exchangers without tin
$75 - Doghouse 36hp fanshroud
Free - second set of type IV and type 1 engine tin
$15 - Oil cooler adapter
$20 - Press in input shaft bushing for type IV flywheel
$100 - Kadron carb kit at swap meet
$80 - sheet metal, aluminum plate, and other hardware expences (fittings, hoses, bolts, ect.)
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$970 - total
That's right. I built a conversion Type IV for under $1000 Canadian. Minimal machining, some metal fabrication, and about 50 hours worth of work. Stock 1800 heads (I think I got lucky on that one, but we'll see how the valve seats last), flat top pistons, Dual Kadrons, Mild Cam, Stock vaccum/mechanical advance distributor, roughly 8.5:1 SCR and a 4 into 1 header with a single quiet pack. Never revs above 4500 and will accelerate up hills in fourth. I built a 1915 type I and it ended up costing several hundred more even with all the parts I already had and screaming deals at swap meets. The 1915 would rev higher and did feel a little punchier in second, but I spent some money on head work.
Someone could make a real fortune if they designed a built fairly inexpensive, good quality heads for a type IV that use type I exhaust location.
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1995 Eurovan Camper
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moggy
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2004
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately one thing that didn't make it across the pond (unles I'm mistaken) is a decent circuit racing championship for Beetles, in particular, one where you were allowed to choose your powerplant between Type4 or Type1. Now I think we can all agree that racing is all about choosing the combo's that WIN.....nothing else matters! (I know that's true for me...which is why I run a Type4 motor and am currently winning the aircooled class of the UK Short Course Off Road series)
In Europe we had mainly the Kafer Cup and SuperVW cup (and recently the Histo cup and Divinol but not restricted to Beetles). Time and time again the Type4 engined cars won, that's not to say that the occasional Type1 powered bug didn't win but it was in the minority. The majority of the field, that could, ran Type4 motors!
In a race that lasted more than 10SECONDS  the winners choose the Type4 engine over the Type1!! |
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danimal
Banned
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| JamesT wrote: |
| If I had a dollar for every stock dualport head I have sitting in the barn with a bad crack between the valve seats and sparkplug thread, I'd probably be able to afford a decent pair of heads. On the other hand, I've seen a lot of type IV heads with dropped valve seats or cracks, but these are all stock heads. You may call stock type IV heads junk, but in reality, type I heads aren't much better. |
that's a nice post james, i agree with a lot of it, except for a couple of MAJOR flaws that i guess we can attribute to your lack of knowledge about type 1's:
1) type 1 heads do not drop seats, even when cracked, which is why you did not mention in your post... type 1 heads are far more reliable than type 4 heads, because when the type 4 seat drops, it can destroy the motor... so don't even try telling us that type 1 heads "aren't much better", that is a crap statement.
2) among other things, you did not list the cost to refurb type 4 heads in your list... a very major omission! but the cost of the kadron kit is not relevant.
poor moggy... months ago i posted those australian hillclimbing links (to the thread that got deleted), where a type 1 dominated the type 4's in the allmotor class... the fact that you deliberately didn't mention it now is a testament to your character, and it shows how far out of touch you are over there... flat 4 performance hardly begins and ends in england, lol.
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oicdn
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2005
Posts: 279
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
What does a Civic have to do with this VW web site?
You think .200 of a second is consistant??? I ran three time trials last Saturday night within .007 seconds of each other. |
He said 12's in a VW....I ran 12's in a CIVIC. I ran 12's in a CAVALIER...a CAVALIER FOR CHRISTS SAKE.....so I know what's "12's feel like"....
Running 12's in either of those cars is a HELL OF ALOT HARDER to do than doing them in a RWD, light curb weight bug.
And .200 is pretty damn consistent with street tires and FWD....
Back at ya....
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Unless it’s an Internet forum.
Then they’re the baddest motherfucker on the entire Internet.”
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