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Turnswrenches
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2019
Posts: 552
Location: Dawsonville, GA
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 Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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Good info is not a detour. Thanks for all that !
I think Ive got my situation under control.
The car runs, drives and cools to my satisfaction.
When the air deflectors arrive from Gene Berg, I will install them and see if it makes a difference. The car runs cool enough right now without them that im not worried about heat issues.
These deflectors should be final icing on the cake. |
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rayjay
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: Buford GA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:04 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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| Turnswrenches wrote: |
These deflectors should be final icing on the cake. |
never mention icing around a VW motor !!!
You may find out that the only reason your motor is running so good right now is that it's been hot hot hot outside these last few days  |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:17 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
Well. I think it is fair to menthion that the reason I went with those heads on these two builds were due to customers wanting the claimed extra cooling capacity for their semi high power bus engines. If we concentrate on the cooling part, the through flow is not enough out of the box. Apart from the through hole to the thermostat rod it is virtually non existing. This means that a large portion of the upper extra fins only get "passing" air which makes them rather inefficient. By drilling through holes between 3 fins it is possible to route - some - air to that part of the heads. I would have liked a little more, but the casting is kinda fat, so there is an option for large ports if one should chose to make that. The area just over the exhaust ports should be cleaned up so cooling air can come through there. Getting heat away from this area actually helps a lot.
I think I sent a picture of a cleaned up head to the customer. I will ask him tomorrow.
Performance wise, - ahh, well, opinions vary. On the one set (042´s) w. 40/35 mm seats, the heads suffered from a lot of overhang both on the intake and exhaust seats. So much that it could not even be cured with a 42 mm intake seat. So I roughened it up and added some Belzona to the area just over the intake seat. Then shaped the port like I wanted for this particular engine (2165 bus) I was VERY close to pull the exhaust seats and have the ports welded, but the owner thougt that was a bad idea (financially) So I left the exh. port alone. Now, I wrote that opinions vary. But my opinion is that the seat ID is too large. The intake seats suits a 41 mm valve better, which is also supported by the fact that taking care of the overhang along with minor work in the port and machining down a 42 mm valve to 41 along with a back cut, put into a standard cut 33/45/60/75 seat improved intake flow to 164 cfm @ ,600 and 25" (actually ,565") and with a nice uniform tone. And at this point I had not touched the chambers!!!
Back out the guides and clean up the intakes in the spost I wanted to touch and reshape the chambers for 94 mm bore gave me 174 cfm @ ,600" with very good port velocity. Fine for the engine its going on.
(In general. Seat ID´s on especially intakes around the 90 - 92% range is good for high rpm high valve lift. Not so good for engines that are supposed to pull usable power in the lower rpm and lower valve lifts. The drop of seat/valve relation to 87% (and fixing the overhang) in this case improved lower lift under ,400" with 10% average descending towards full lift.
The exh ports are a little odd. They were VERY sensetive to a stub during testing. In fact I found that using a 1 5/8" stub - naturally gave the highest peak #´s, but making a small 1½" stub that went into the port basicly reducing port outlet size to 1½" and using a 1½" stub gave way better and much more uniform overall numbers. The pressure drop just over the seat due to the overhand is very evident and does hurt overall flow with about 4 maybe 5 cfm. It still gave an I/E ratio of 76 though. How the heads will perform on the street, in my set up, and in a bus is still 3-4 weeks out in the future to be known.
The other set got on the shelf for now, since that engine couldnt wait any longer.
Hope this helps.
Now THAT was a detour of this thread  Back to resolving the OP´s issues.
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(crawls out from under a rock)
I really don't wish to derail OP's thread, but is there any way you could post some pictures, maybe in a new thread, or just links to the gallery? I've been wanting to see how these look in person but your opinion is one I think carries a ton of weight. My engine build is getting ready to actually happen soon and I was feeling wishy washy on heads with these, AA, or Steve Tims. The claims of increased cooling sound like a good thing of course, but Some actual indepent opinions and testing would be lovely to see.
_________________
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Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
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Turnswrenches
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2019
Posts: 552
Location: Dawsonville, GA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:02 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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| rayjay wrote: |
| Turnswrenches wrote: |
These deflectors should be final icing on the cake. |
never mention icing around a VW motor !!!
You may find out that the only reason your motor is running so good right now is that it's been hot hot hot outside these last few days |
It was fairly cool the other night when I took it for a ride and it ran great... so I'm not touching anything. 
All Ive done to it lately was finish the carpet install... and painted 5 wheels to match. I have deliberately avoided the engine compartment. 
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Turnswrenches
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2019
Posts: 552
Location: Dawsonville, GA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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| Lingwendil wrote: |
| Alstrup wrote: |
Well. I think it is fair to menthion that the reason I went with those heads on these two builds were due to customers wanting the claimed extra cooling capacity for their semi high power bus engines. If we concentrate on the cooling part, the through flow is not enough out of the box. Apart from the through hole to the thermostat rod it is virtually non existing. This means that a large portion of the upper extra fins only get "passing" air which makes them rather inefficient. By drilling through holes between 3 fins it is possible to route - some - air to that part of the heads. I would have liked a little more, but the casting is kinda fat, so there is an option for large ports if one should chose to make that. The area just over the exhaust ports should be cleaned up so cooling air can come through there. Getting heat away from this area actually helps a lot.
I think I sent a picture of a cleaned up head to the customer. I will ask him tomorrow.
Performance wise, - ahh, well, opinions vary. On the one set (042´s) w. 40/35 mm seats, the heads suffered from a lot of overhang both on the intake and exhaust seats. So much that it could not even be cured with a 42 mm intake seat. So I roughened it up and added some Belzona to the area just over the intake seat. Then shaped the port like I wanted for this particular engine (2165 bus) I was VERY close to pull the exhaust seats and have the ports welded, but the owner thougt that was a bad idea (financially) So I left the exh. port alone. Now, I wrote that opinions vary. But my opinion is that the seat ID is too large. The intake seats suits a 41 mm valve better, which is also supported by the fact that taking care of the overhang along with minor work in the port and machining down a 42 mm valve to 41 along with a back cut, put into a standard cut 33/45/60/75 seat improved intake flow to 164 cfm @ ,600 and 25" (actually ,565") and with a nice uniform tone. And at this point I had not touched the chambers!!!
Back out the guides and clean up the intakes in the spost I wanted to touch and reshape the chambers for 94 mm bore gave me 174 cfm @ ,600" with very good port velocity. Fine for the engine its going on.
(In general. Seat ID´s on especially intakes around the 90 - 92% range is good for high rpm high valve lift. Not so good for engines that are supposed to pull usable power in the lower rpm and lower valve lifts. The drop of seat/valve relation to 87% (and fixing the overhang) in this case improved lower lift under ,400" with 10% average descending towards full lift.
The exh ports are a little odd. They were VERY sensetive to a stub during testing. In fact I found that using a 1 5/8" stub - naturally gave the highest peak #´s, but making a small 1½" stub that went into the port basicly reducing port outlet size to 1½" and using a 1½" stub gave way better and much more uniform overall numbers. The pressure drop just over the seat due to the overhand is very evident and does hurt overall flow with about 4 maybe 5 cfm. It still gave an I/E ratio of 76 though. How the heads will perform on the street, in my set up, and in a bus is still 3-4 weeks out in the future to be known.
The other set got on the shelf for now, since that engine couldnt wait any longer.
Hope this helps.
Now THAT was a detour of this thread Back to resolving the OP´s issues.
|
(crawls out from under a rock)
I really don't wish to derail OP's thread, but is there any way you could post some pictures, maybe in a new thread, or just links to the gallery? I've been wanting to see how these look in person but your opinion is one I think carries a ton of weight. My engine build is getting ready to actually happen soon and I was feeling wishy washy on heads with these, AA, or Steve Tims. The claims of increased cooling sound like a good thing of course, but Some actual indepent opinions and testing would be lovely to see. |
Feel free to derail the thread... I've gotten all I need from it already.
You guys can take it to the next level now. |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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Turnswrenches
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2019
Posts: 552
Location: Dawsonville, GA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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Im out driving the car now with 125/175 main jets.
It runs awesome !
Im seeing a rich spike on the O2 sensor during acceleration but it settles down in the upper 11's/low 12's at WOT once it burns the pump shot.
I think my squirter nozzle may be a little large...but otherwise she runs awesome.
#3 CHT stays between 330-360. 300 at idle.
Running down highway at 60-65 it stays in 360's and lean cruise is very stable between 15.0-15.5.
Acceleration through all the gears from idle to WOT is smooth and seamless.
I think I am spot-on with jetting now.
It honestly runs too damn good to mess with it any more.
Last edited by Turnswrenches on Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:38 am; edited 4 times in total |
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Turnswrenches
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2019
Posts: 552
Location: Dawsonville, GA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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| Lingwendil wrote: |
| Very nice interior, nice to see a padded dash that's so nicely done |
Thanks bud !
Its the original 1971 German dash pad ! |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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Drop secondary main to 165-170. As you approach 13:1 it will make more power.
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It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net
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Turnswrenches
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2019
Posts: 552
Location: Dawsonville, GA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| Drop secondary main to 165-170. As you approach 13:1 it will make more power. |
Im already noticing more power/cleaner revving.
I just ordered a few more jets from you yesterday to cover the final tune.
I think maybe 120-122.5 primary, and 165-170 secondary will be spot-on.
Its definitely very close now.
Only other possible glitch is...
I think my current china-euro muffler is choked-up and mostly breathing out of only one tailpipe.
I have a Dansk/German Sebring stainless muffler and J-pipes on the way...
I worry that may throw my tune off.
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Turnswrenches
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2019
Posts: 552
Location: Dawsonville, GA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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Just wanted to followup this thread with more results.
Not sure if it was the muffler change or the air deflectors... but this car runs amazing now. It just keeps getting better. I never saw CHT get over 365 under any conditions. Typically it would float between 330-360 and climb into 370's on highway.
Now its hanging around 300-315 and gets to 350-ish on highway. Up hill under load maybe another 20 degrees but easily managed with throttle.
I couldnt believe my eyes after a long 4 gear decel to a traffic light from 55mph. The CHT dropped into the 270's. Ive NEVER seen it that cool before. It never went below the 310's before.
I am super stoked.
Still on the 125/175 main jetting and a little fat at idle still.
I just got the muffler on last night and didnt want to mess with jets until i saw if it would affect O2's.
Last edited by Turnswrenches on Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3446
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:57 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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| I would watch your pushrod tubes for leaks as 1 is ready to blow out |
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Turnswrenches
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2019
Posts: 552
Location: Dawsonville, GA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:03 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
| I would watch your pushrod tubes for leaks as 1 is ready to blow out |
Yep already on my radar |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7219
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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The muffler makes - some - impact. For a mild no frills engine it is not a bad muffler.
The largest difference is the deflector plates. They have much more impact on cooling than they get credit for.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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Turnswrenches
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2019
Posts: 552
Location: Dawsonville, GA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
The muffler makes - some - impact. For a mild no frills engine it is not a bad muffler.
The largest difference is the deflector plates. They have much more impact on cooling than they get credit for. |
Well I definitely will be happy to give them credit. 
The difference is amazing... and im thankfull for the suggestion here on samba.
I will definitely use these deflectors in the 2332 build. |
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GARRICK.CLARK
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2012
Posts: 1267
Location: Lancashire UK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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| Why is the vac can so offset like in the pic, swing it round, reposition the plug leads and reset the timing |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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It will run cooler again when you install the missing sled tins and rear deflector tins.
_________________
It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
| I would watch your pushrod tubes for leaks as 1 is ready to blow out |
When I torque heads on a motor, I always tighten the head down to maybe 12-14lbs and then use a 13mm socket, stick it in the end of the tube and center the tubes so you can see part of the seal all the way around. Then torque it to 18 or 23 depending on the studs and you will be good to go.
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Turnswrenches
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2019
Posts: 552
Location: Dawsonville, GA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| It will run cooler again when you install the missing sled tins and rear deflector tins. |
All the sled and industrial tins are in place.
The apron tin was hacked up and has some leaky spots... but is better than nothing until I can replace it.
I still need to find rear deflector tins. Forgot all abt those. |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Getting frustrated with this 32/36 Weber... need replacement |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| chrisflstf wrote: |
| I would watch your pushrod tubes for leaks as 1 is ready to blow out |
When I torque heads on a motor, I always tighten the head down to maybe 12-14lbs and then use a 13mm socket, stick it in the end of the tube and center the tubes so you can see part of the seal all the way around. Then torque it to 18 or 23 depending on the studs and you will be good to go. |
Oh wow!
I've been doing the same with the handle of my ratchet (it's round and has a bit of taper too it) to make me feel good about them being centered. Glad to see I'm not totally goofballing on it.
_________________
73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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