Loctite Teflon thread sealant

[SGKent]

Just as an FYI to those who will use it, the white stuff - I think it is Loctite 565. It holds. I used it on case bolts when I built the engine some 10 years and 2200 miles ago. Took the case to Del's Machine Shop here and they washed it for me. The thread sealant did not come off things. No problem, I've got to super clean the oil passages anyway with the pressure washer so I'll hit the remaining thread sealant with a thin pencil beam of water at 2800 PSI. Nope. It still does not come off even under a direct stream of water at it for 15-20 seconds. That water will cut a hole in wood, eat into concrete, take paint off things if you direct it at something painted for too long... . Nope, the thread sealant does not budge. I'll get it off with solvent, a wire brush and scraping but for it not to come off with that kind of water pressure amazes me. It probably would require glass beading to get it off and that isn't smart with an engine block or case. Although the factory sand casts many things, one small piece of sand or a glass bead left in an oil passage could really ruin your day.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Angus II]

Hello, You need to drive that bus more.... built engine some 10 years ago and (only) 2,200 miles?

[Wildthings]

[SGKent]

Yes - the original plan was to build as bullet proof an engine that I could, and take it on a US tour. That might still happen but not this year, maybe next.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[vwwestyman]

Curious why you're tearing it down again?
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Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[SGKent]

[SGKent]

an update, the new case leaked at one of the flywheel gallery plugs. Loctite 567 did not seal the plugs that leaked but it sure was a bitc* to get them out. Had to heat at least one. Going back to the old case. Just sitting here trying to decide on what thread sealant to use. I don't remember if I used 565 originally on the old case or Permatex with PTFE. One thing I noticed was some small pocks and scratches in a couple bearings with 20 minutes run time. The case was super cleaned, as were all the passages. I am a bit concerned that some of the 567 that found its way to the end of any plugs came free and carried into the bearings, hardening along the way because of the activator. This is so draining.

565 w/activator
567 w/activator
Permatex with PTFE
Aviation gasket sealer
yada yada
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[SGKent]

I wanted to add to this. The issue is that for every sealant there is a thread somewhere that says I used 565 and it leaked, or I used 567 and it leaked, or I used 565 and it never hardened even with activator and leaked. Or I put together helicopter engines and have for 30 years - I only use Aviation 800017 etc. Then there is a thread where someone says they used that and it leaked. Then someone else who has assembled Type 4 engines for 40 years as a VW mechanic says just use the Napa or Permatex teflon sealant. Ray comes along with a 3 hour read on the subject with recommendations and someone says - thanks that worked, then someone else uses the same method but gets leaks. It feels like a crap shoot. I would not feel this way but the new case leaked while sitting and no oil pressure using Loctite 567 It is really annoying not to have a definitive answer. Making matters worse, I have never had a leak with anything else like this is my life. I can't afford time and energy wise to go thru this again.

I am leaning towards using Chris's suggestion below. Hope he is enjoying his retirement. He dropped by the office unannounced one day when he was in Sacto for some classes and wanted to do lunch but I was committed all the way to the top tier of the Agency to support a critical public meeting at that time and could not get away for lunch that day. Miss him.

[Wildthings]

Clean both the male and female threads well and use JB Weld. I would probably used JBW on both the male and female threads and then wipe the female threats clean of more than just a very thin surface coat and make sure the male threads don't have any JBW that is going to end up on the oil galleys.

[SGKent]

I decided to use Chris's suggestion which is the Napa Thread Sealant. I may have used that on the original engine 10 years ago, I don't remember but I think so. It looks good. Also Loctite had a suggestion on one of their techpages for stubborn plugs or fittings. Put two small dabs into the female threads 180 degrees apart. It won't be enough to push a mass ahead of the plug, but enough to help seal as it goes in. I set the 3/8 to 25 ft lbs, the 5/16 to 20 ft lbs and the 1/4 to 15 ft lbs. I also used some NTPF 3/8 plugs in the NTPF threads. I bought a package as spares when I found them after the leaking engine was built. These 3/8 were all cut with a NTPF tap also so I don't know why that new case leaks. I have a solution for that in time - weld clean aluminum plugs in the 3 3/8 holes.

The one 1/4 plug was a stainless from one of the well liked vendors but the allen rounded at 12 ft lbs and I had to drive a torx bit into it to get it out. The stainless plugs are soft because the torx bit drove into it like butter. So I ended up reusing one 1/4" black steel plug. 11 plugs total. I am pretty sure this stuff will last. The old shirt I have on has some on it and has been washed maybe 25 times. It takes acetone or equal to dissolve it once it hardens.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[RWK]

Pipe plugs seal due to distortion (mainly NPTF) of the plugs threads into one another and seal mechanically, the old days a lubricant was used (lead) to reduce the friction of the torque so that this happens easily and fills the gaps not crushed together, no sealant of any kind will be at this point.
In a casting it is not done so easily, excessive torque can break (or flare the hole) in the casting or crack it, also the treads can crack, because you cannot torque plugs enough to do this. What works well is Loctite sleeve retainer, (green, 680?) it fills the gaps and hardens, like the JB comment above.
Sleeve retainer was suggested by Berg for the fittings because sometimes you cannot tap or turn the fittings (main oil galley fitting) to where it needs to be.
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73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530

[W1K1]

most of the Loctite sealants are anaerobic so they won't harden up on outer surfaces. that's the beauty of them if some squeezes into the engine it should wash out with the first start up. Of course, unless you're using activator to artificially harden it, then all bets are off.

The last time I disassembled mine there was no sealant in the case anywhere, I used 515 gasket sealant, and blue thread lock, and 565 thread sealant for plugs.

Now if you want a structural adhesive that works like a superglue on steroids Loctite HY4070 is a great product with a 60 second setup time, Gap filling up to 0.2 in (5 mm). I used it to glue my shortened stacks onto the CB filter housings a couple years ago, they are still stuck solid.

https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/ca/en/product/structural-adhesives/loctite_hy_4070.html

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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php

1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap

[raygreenwood]

The problem with ALL...ALL...ALL...sealants (especially thread sealants)...unless they are actually an adhesive and not really a "sealant".....is that all of them have a limitation on what "cross section" of gap they can fill.

This has to to do with a combination of items like solids content, elasticity and tensile strength of the film. You can also add in....how well that product holds up against oil, fuel and solvents.

The wild card(s) on top of all of those items.....are:

1. Whether the sealant is "anaerobic". This goes back to gap size. If these are anaerobic sealants and you have widely varying gap in threads or on sealing surfaces that allow access to air/oxygen....the sealant will be weak and may never fully cure.

If it comes in contact with oils and fuel before it cures ...usually they will fail.

2. How clean the surfaces are that you are applying the sealant to. Oils are obvious....but if the surfaces are textured and/or have anodizing or an oxide coating like black oxide....those are porous and entrain oxygen. That will either grossly slow down anaerobic sealants or make them fail.

3. Moisture...humidity. If its humid where you are assembling and you have anaerobic sealant ...getting humidity mixed in is the same as oxygen. If you are working on cold parts that are below dew point in the room you are working...you get condensation on the parts. Thats moisture....thats an anaerobic failure waiting to happen.

4. If the sealant you are using happens to be epoxy based....humidity can kill it.

Lastly.....if the adhesive/sealant you are using IS anaerobic....if you do some research you will find that whether they are alkylene glycol based (or similar) or methacrylic based (or similar).....they actually cure fairly slowly just in the "anaerobic" (meaning without oxygen) state. This is why they dry very slowly in the bottle.

They cure MUCH more rapidly when they are applied to METAL....in an anaerobic state (meaning tight gaps that exclude/push out oxygen). The metal ion charges are a catalyst.

And....it matters what type of metal. Some catalyze the sealant faster or slower. For instance....fasteners that are too heavily plated with zinc or parts that are actually galvanized...actually can inhibit- slow down.... the cure of anaerobic sealants.

This does not mean that they will NOT cure....but if they are not cured before you get oil and fuel on them they will fail.

Ray

[SGKent]

all the plugs are in and look good. Cylinder studs are in. I'll give it a day to set then try a little compressed air in the galleries to see if any leaks show up (soapy bubbles at plugs)
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Ry-dog]

[SGKent]

I think it was 565 in a tube. This time I went with sealant from NAPA since that did not leak on the old case. I am hoping it will not leak this time either. I suspect the new case has a flaw in that area that is letting oil around the threads. My fix on the new case when I get around to it will be to have some non-anodized aluminum plugs tigged in.

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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Ry-dog]

Thx for the info SGKent. Which NAPA sealant? I was at my NAPA today and saw a few NAPA sealants, but wasn't sure if it was the type that was in a tube or in the brush can. Hoping to just pick it up locally rather than order it if possible. Thanks
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'70 Westy
'14 Jeep Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel

[sodbuster]

I've had good luck with the loctite thread compounds. I can get them through my job so it's convenient as well. But I also use a compound called Rector seal. excellent product and in my opinion better suited for use on engines and automotive systems requiring a thread sealant.

S:Paid:GGL:CSM-2293:99F1R6:20501231&gclid=CjwKCAiA9NGfBhBvEiwAq5vSy6nF3xxQjXyHdJnsnoxFpJHqeSA6wC7T2Wxej-EpS_-Q6qUYf2Q78xoCG0kQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds" target="_blank">https://www.grainger.com/product/4YRW3?gucid=N:N...lsrc=aw.ds

[Vanapplebomb]

Lately I have really been liking Gasoila soft set for threaded joints.

I also have good luck with anaerobic hydraulic sealants.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021

[SGKent]

the NAPA in a white can. Made by Permatex I think. I'll take a photo in a while and post it.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin