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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7402 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:08 pm Post subject: Brake pedal lights turn signals and more...SOLVED (not grounds) |
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Hi All,
I’m starting a new thread since the previous one included a poll that wasn’t particularly helpful.
Symptoms
- Stepping on the brake pedal illuminates the brake lights AND all four turn signals
- Turning on right or left turn signals illuminates all four turn signals (they each flash until stepping on the brakes which lights them all solidly)
- Bonus: turning on a turn signal turns off the cruise control
Background
- These symptoms showed up about two weeks ago. No recent mods, bulb changes, tinkering, etc. They just appeared during the commute home from work.
Actions and Observations
- Read about a half dozen similar threads
- Grounds cleaned: terminals and ground trees under the dash; ground on the steering column; taillight wiring harness ground on the driver’s side in the engine compartment
- Measured resistance at various points: battery to body, battery to ground trees, etc. showing 0 ohms
- Measured voltage: batter is about 12.7 volts static; voltage at rear housing terminals show little drop except for the turn signals which drop to 10.5 volts or less (when running voltage typically runs about 14.5 volts at the battery and other locations...except the rear turn signals).
- removed front turn signals to check for corrosion: terminals looked spotless (signal housings were replaced about a year ago)
- Removed rear signal housings, inspected, cleaned. All looked darn good.
- Assorted other things while poking around today including snapping the hazard light switch sharply 10x (suggested by Mark, crazyvwvanman)
- At least one or two things I’ve forgotten to mention here.
Question
- Any recommended next steps?
Ground trees before..
Ground tree before..
Ground trees after...
Previous and other threads...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=728865&highlight=
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=273529
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=453838
Thanks. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro).
Last edited by jimf909 on Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6376 Location: Westfalia, Earth
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Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: Brake pedal illuminates turn signals and more... |
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It seems I mentioned a couple weeks ago that we've had similar things happen when our regulator was spiking. The challenge is having that happen while witnessing it.
That said, the voltage loss at the tail lights seems to point elsewhere.
Sorry to throw a guess at you, but there it is.
Good Luck, Jim. 👍🏼 _________________ ‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman |
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Butcher Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015 Posts: 1285 Location: Right Here
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Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Brake pedal illuminates turn signals and more... |
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I would focus your attention to the tail lights. Sounds like one of the brake light wires may be shorted against the turn signal wire. |
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jlrftype7 Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018 Posts: 3549 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Brake pedal illuminates turn signals and more... |
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Have you unplugged both Tail Light assemblies and tried the Brake Pedal then?.
Would be interesting to hear what happens with that set-up since you're removing all rear bulbs and now only have an input to the Rear Lights from the Brake switch with an open circuit since they're unplugged . If the Front Turn signals still act up with the Brakes Applied, I'd look at the under dash wiring and Fusebox to see if any wires melted into each other partially.
I agree with E1 that the lower operating voltage on the Turn Signals is suspect[ vehicle running?] _________________ '68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Brake pedal illuminates turn signals and more... |
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If the van has any trailer light wiring added I'd look closely at that and consider unhooking it from the van wiring.
Mark |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7402 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Brake pedal illuminates turn signals and more... |
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Butcher wrote: |
I would focus your attention to the tail lights. Sounds like one of the brake light wires may be shorted against the turn signal wire. |
Agreed. Bad grounds is such a common issue that I wanted to rule that out but I agree this is where it seems to be leading.
jlrftype7 wrote: |
Have you unplugged both Tail Light assemblies and tried the Brake Pedal then?.
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I’ve unplugged one assembly and measured voltage with similar results but not both at the same time.
crazyvwvanman wrote: |
If the van has any trailer light wiring added I'd look closely at that and consider unhooking it from the van wiring.
Mark |
Busted. It does have trailer light wiring installed by the PO that’s been trouble free...until now? His work was pretty good but I agree that this is a flag at this point.
I’ll let you know how it goes with the next round of troubleshooting.
Thanks everyone for the tips. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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Muftobration Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2014 Posts: 90 Location: Acton, MA
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Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:45 pm Post subject: Re: Brake pedal illuminates turn signals and more... |
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I was having some strange electrical issues in my '84. Turning on the headlights dimmed the dashboard and shifter lights and the high beam indicator light was inverted: lit when disengaged and off when engaged. I took off the large wiring harness connector from the back of the instrument cluster, sprayed WD-40 into all the contacts, did a few insertions into the female end, and all the problems went away simultaneously.
If you have not cleaned that connector, it would be a very easy next step to try, though the trailer wiring sounds like the likelier culprit given the lights that are misbehaving. |
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wbailey2112 Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2015 Posts: 482 Location: Grove City, OH
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Brake pedal illuminates turn signals and more... |
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Don't use WD-40 as an electrical contact cleaner. Use a can of electrical contact cleaner. You can find it at any auto parts store. _________________ '74 Thing
'83 Westfalia |
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Butcher Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015 Posts: 1285 Location: Right Here
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Brake pedal illuminates turn signals and more... |
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crazyvwvanman wrote: |
If the van has any trailer light wiring added I'd look closely at that..... |
This by far sounds like the issue. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Brake pedal illuminates turn signals and more... |
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Yes,the trailer light wiring stuff is a major suspect. Since trailers commonly use the same bulb filament for both turn signals and brake lights a wiring converter is often fitted with the trailer hookup wiring to combine what are separate functions in our vans. That is why I suggested unhooking the trailer related wiring from the VW wiring as that would eliminate the brake/turn signal converter device also.
Mark |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7402 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: Brake pedal illuminates turn signals and more... |
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wbailey2112 wrote: |
Don't use WD-40 as an electrical contact cleaner. Use a can of electrical contact cleaner. You can find it at any auto parts store. |
Good point. Here's the electrical contact cleaner in use...
djkeev wrote: |
Tail lights ground at the ground point below the ignition coil next to the engine. |
This was the first ground I cleaned after you mentioned it in my first thread. Thanks!
crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Yes,the trailer light wiring stuff is a major suspect. Since trailers commonly use the same bulb filament for both turn signals and brake lights a wiring converter is often fitted with the trailer hookup wiring to combine what are separate functions in our vans. That is why I suggested unhooking the trailer related wiring from the VW wiring as that would eliminate the brake/turn signal converter device also.
Mark |
You're 100% correct on the converter. It's installed just ahead of the driver's side taillight. Eliminating the trailer wiring will be my first stop when I look at it (probably Saturday). In terms of diagnostic paths, the grounds seemed like a reasonable first guess but the trailer light wiring is a good suspect too. To the POs credit, it's installed with some care but it's probably a decade or more old and it gets wet where it's installed.
I'll update when I learn more.
Thanks, everyone. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
|
Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7402 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Brake pedal illuminates turn signals and more... |
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crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Yes,the trailer light wiring stuff is a major suspect. Since trailers commonly use the same bulb filament for both turn signals and brake lights a wiring converter is often fitted with the trailer hookup wiring to combine what are separate functions in our vans. That is why I suggested unhooking the trailer related wiring from the VW wiring as that would eliminate the brake/turn signal converter device also.
Mark |
Thank you! You nailed it. With all the lights on (brake, turn signal, reverse and running lights) I snipped the wires coming out of the trailer light module and after cutting the third and final wire the Vanagon lights returned to normal operation.
That module was located in front of the driver's rear light assembly under the D-pillar. It was wet and I'm guessing that it shorted out causing these problems. Interestingly, the vent at the top of the d-pillar was not in place and I'm guessing that more rain than normal may have entered the vent to swamp the module. Either that or it failed a decade or more after the PO installed it.
I guess it's not always the grounds, but now I have clean grounds with a nice top-coat of dielectric grease. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
|
Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6376 Location: Westfalia, Earth
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Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: Brake pedal lights turn signals and more...SOLVED (not grounds) |
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Sweet, Congrats! 👍🏼 _________________ ‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman |
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fxr Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014 Posts: 2300 Location: Bay area CA
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Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Brake pedal lights turn signals and more...SOLVED (not grounds) |
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Do you actually use a trailer? If so, don't use one of those 'modules' but just use relays.
_________________ Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300 |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7402 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Brake pedal lights turn signals and more...SOLVED (not grounds) |
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Thanks for the schematic. I've never pulled a trailer with this van but kept the harness around just in case. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
|
Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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Gnarlodious Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2013 Posts: 2312 Location: Adobe Jungle USA
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:34 am Post subject: Re: Brake pedal lights turn signals and more...SOLVED (not grounds) |
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fxr wrote: |
Do you actually use a trailer? If so, don't use one of those 'modules' but just use relays.
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You're saying that normally the trailer’s lights act as directional flashers, but when the brakes come on it overrides both sides…
This arrangement would have the added advantage of handling more current to run a backup camera and reversing alarm for when pulling a trailer. I would suggest a delay buffer to the reversing coil since the transmission switch is often intermittent. _________________ Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit |
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fxr Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014 Posts: 2300 Location: Bay area CA
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: Brake pedal lights turn signals and more...SOLVED (not grounds) |
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Gnarlodious wrote: |
fxr wrote: |
Do you actually use a trailer? If so, don't use one of those 'modules' but just use relays.
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You're saying that normally the trailer’s lights act as directional flashers, but when the brakes come on it overrides both sides… |
Not quite - when the brakes come on a trailer turn signal will still work, just like most US cars.
[aside]I never understood why US cars didn't have separate turn signals and brake lights, and have red turn signals in the rear. I've nearly hit cars before now because of this. Were light bulbs so expensive they wanted to minimise their number? Mystified...[/aside]
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This arrangement would have the added advantage of handling more current to run a backup camera and reversing alarm for when pulling a trailer. I would suggest a delay buffer to the reversing coil since the transmission switch is often intermittent. |
There's no connection to the reversing circuitry. _________________ Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300 |
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