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WD-40
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Joined: May 31, 2006
Posts: 1178
Location: Iowa
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 Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: Grapes of Wrath $200 engine rebuild |
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| AlteWagen wrote: |
| I appreciate all the interest! Unfortunately Im in the middle of ANOTHER move and all the builds, parts and tools are boxed up. |
How's the unpacking going? 
One more vote of interest for Part 2!
You could kick it off by explaining what it was about the GEX heads, that ultimately made them unusable for the budget rebuild. 
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AlteWagen
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Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8501
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Grapes of Wrath $200 engine rebuild |
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| WD-40 wrote: |
| AlteWagen wrote: |
| I appreciate all the interest! Unfortunately Im in the middle of ANOTHER move and all the builds, parts and tools are boxed up. |
How's the unpacking going?
One more vote of interest for Part 2!
You could kick it off by explaining what it was about the GEX heads, that ultimately made them unusable for the budget rebuild. |
Well, moving AGAIN!!! The wife and I joke about starting our own moving company since we got it down packed. Have to finish the new construction, repair the old house then off to the PNW. Finished the blueprinting of the 1800 build and hope to wrap it up soon so will get more pics for you all.
The GEX head look like there was some water that sat in the intake port and pitted the seat REAL bad. Tried a few lap treatments but they needed a real cut to clean them up. I had some pics but lost them on an old hard drive.
I think I might do an update just on the state of parts on the current market and the prices/quality change that has happened over the last 10 years or so.
I guess the only change in build technique I can share is measuring the end play on the bench instead of in the case. Other than that just more measuring due to more and more crappy parts.
HANG IN THERE!!!
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cdennisg
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Joined: November 02, 2004
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Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Grapes of Wrath $200 engine rebuild |
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So, a few months on, any chance of an update?
Thanks for all of the info so far. This is great stuff to reference.
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AlteWagen
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Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Grapes of Wrath $200 engine rebuild |
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Thanks again for the continued interest, I just wish I had the time to get more car stuff done. Right now just building rides to make the move. Lots of work on the tow vehicles so rebuilds on those would not be of any interest to most here. Maybe I should have documented the 350 SBC rebuild using these same techniques bringing the total to $375 for the complete 'rebuild'. The 454 BBC cost $525 but that got new cam/lifter/springs/valves on top of the ring/bearing/gaskets/timing chain the SBC got. I will say the aftermarket parts for domestics are just as dismal as the VW offerings. The only difference is there are a lot more reproduction parts available so at least you have a choice.
Dont worry, the giant shop up at the ranch will allow the space and hopefully the time to finish the documentation series.
One question to all. Ive been asked a few times if this will be available as a book when finished. Is anyone interested in a printed version with all the pics (much better ones), blueprint and specification sheets? If I was going to finish a book I would also include stroker requirements and valve train geometry.
If there is any interest or any other topics that you would like to see covered please let me know.
T
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nice-diver
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Joined: May 24, 2007
Posts: 135
Location: oregon
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2020 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Grapes of Wrath $200 engine rebuild |
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i would buy a book based on 2020 parts to rebuild a 1600 dp with the goal of street mileage rather than a big bore drag motor.
my big question is matching dist to carb to timing, or is it determined by carb size (30 carb is 10*...31 carb is 7*...34 carb is -5*)
thank you
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AlteWagen
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Joined: February 23, 2007
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Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2020 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Grapes of Wrath $200 engine rebuild |
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| nice-diver wrote: |
i would buy a book based on 2020 parts to rebuild a 1600 dp with the goal of street mileage rather than a big bore drag motor.
my big question is matching dist to carb to timing, or is it determined by carb size (30 carb is 10*...31 carb is 7*...34 carb is -5*)
thank you |
I would include a whole section on parts availability and quality for sure. The engine I rebuilt in the series was specifically built with mileage and longevity in mind. Id call it a success as I was able to get 25-29 mpg in a bus and 170K miles on the long block with only this $200 rebuild at 70K miles. The thing is, many of the tricks keeping drag engines alive will also work on street engines and will usually make them last even longer. Example, CW cranks, race balance rotating parts, oil system mods (sump/pump blue print/oil filter/Hoover mods/piston squirters/valve spring sprayers, etc).
Stock builds do best when distributor is matched to carb and factory timing is used. Ive found that less timing is needed the more efficient the burn in the combustion chamber. The total timing needed really depends on several factors, compression ratio and cam being the biggest contributors. The old method of advancing timing until it pings under load can vary widely depending on the parts combination. An example is the old style giant bathtub "semi hemi" combustion chambers that require a TON of timing to work.
Vacuum advance allows the best of both worlds, max total timing under load for max power AND additional timing to improve mpg (lean burn) while at part throttle/light load.
I think most shops just play it safe and check total timing (28-30*) with a light and let the idle timing fall where it may. With all the poor quality or worn out parts its difficult to get all the other things dialed in quickly and most dont want to pay for quality parts or tuning time.
My advice on timing: DONT GUESS!!! Get a real timing light, a degree pulley, verify TDC. If running vacuum advance find out your engine vacuum and where your advance diaphragm starts and stops working. Then you can actually start dialing in the perfect timing for your engine.
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nice-diver
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2020 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Grapes of Wrath $200 engine rebuild |
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Excellent reply. Thank you.
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chazers18
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:13 am Post subject: Re: Grapes of Wrath $200 engine rebuild |
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So not to bring this back to front.....
Any update on Part 2 with the heads?
Or the Book???
I have a 68 T2 in need of some sensible countability.... 
Excellent write up, for a guy who fixes everything he or his kids touch this is golden! |
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AlteWagen
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:23 am Post subject: Re: Grapes of Wrath $200 engine rebuild |
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Thanks for the kind words and continued interest in my hack thread. Sorry to not have it finished already, Im in a holding pattern on the move due to construction overrun and of course the germ.
Since part 2 has been on my mind for years Ive rewritten the brain draft countless times. Main points to hit:
-casting identification
-inspection
-repair vs replace
-valve guide r&r
-part selection/prep
-assembly
Hate to drag it out but part 3 will cover top end assembly:
-P&C options/prep
-deck height/compression ratio
-rocker arm/pushrod/adjuster ID
-solid rocker setup
-valve train geometry
The final part would be what I would build today with the same goal I had back when this engine project began almost 20 years ago.
Project 'Super 1600' version 2020
Any thing missing you would like me to cover?
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Rome
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Location: Pearl River, NY
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Grapes of Wrath $200 engine rebuild |
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| Any thing missing you would like me to cover? |
How about special tool alternatives? People here have come up with clever alternatives to expensive special tools, faced with the cost of a pro-grade tool vs use on their maybe 1 engine build every 2 years. Using an improvised tool to improve the tolerances of a part to get the part from "out of tolerance" to "within tolerance" adds to the DIY concept of your engine build plan.
Also, with the abundance of inexpensive tools in the past 10 years, tools thought to be too expensive in the past can now be part of the home workshop. Examples are dial indicators, digital calipers; 4" angle grinders with wire or brass brush wheels for cleaning. Per quick search, each of these can be bought for under $20.
For each installment, start out with the activity title, then add a line for special tools before you start with the activity details. |
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cdennisg
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Grapes of Wrath $200 engine rebuild |
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I don't recall if you have discussed the ideal carb/cam/intake options for this build. If not, that would be nice to read.
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AlteWagen
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Grapes of Wrath $200 engine rebuild |
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| Rome wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Any thing missing you would like me to cover? |
How about special tool alternatives? People here have come up with clever alternatives to expensive special tools, faced with the cost of a pro-grade tool vs use on their maybe 1 engine build every 2 years. |
You mean like this?
found this pic on FB and just had to share. Burnt rods and dead starters seem to be kicking around most trolls garage, add a 36mm (or larger for those HD gland nuts) and a bit of weld and boom, use that $100 for some other parts!
I agree on the tools as well. The affordability of spring testers, bore gauges, and other cheap accurate tools has helped the home builder immensely. Sometimes this causes a lot of grief for the parts vendor though.
I think the thread here will be down and dirty like before, for the book the tool listing is a great idea.
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Big Bull Shooter
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Joined: April 28, 2018
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Location: Canadian Rockies
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Grapes of Wrath $200 engine rebuild |
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| AlteWagen wrote: |
| Rome wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Any thing missing you would like me to cover? |
How about special tool alternatives? People here have come up with clever alternatives to expensive special tools, faced with the cost of a pro-grade tool vs use on their maybe 1 engine build every 2 years. |
You mean like this?
found this pic on FB and just had to share. Burnt rods and dead starters seem to be kicking around most trolls garage, add a 36mm (or larger for those HD gland nuts) and a bit of weld and boom, use that $100 for some other parts!
That is genius - love it!
I agree on the tools as well. The affordability of spring testers, bore gauges, and other cheap accurate tools has helped the home builder immensely. Sometimes this causes a lot of grief for the parts vendor though.
I think the thread here will be down and dirty like before, for the book the tool listing is a great idea. |
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AlteWagen
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Joined: February 23, 2007
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Location: PNW
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Grapes of Wrath $200 engine rebuild |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| I don't recall if you have discussed the ideal carb/cam/intake options for this build. If not, that would be nice to read. |
I dont think I ever did a full build thread on this engine here or STF since I was getting so much grief about using the 74mm crank and running 'zero cylinder deck' with stepped heads. I just remember big names in the industry putting down the idea of 'mini strokers' or no machine builds and kept saying its a waste of time and just bore it out. My have times changed. Those same critics way back when now promote these builds and make good money doing so. I like to think I helped change their POV and now the community is better off for it.
I think Ive tested just about all common carb and exhaust options on this engine over the years and settled on what gave me the best power, throttle response, and mpg. The only thing I changed on the engine itself was to replace the 1.25 rockers with stock 1:1 at 10K inspection. Compression stayed the same for the first 70K miles at around 9:1 with a 52cc combustion volume. During this refresh the replacement cylinders were .020 longer so dropped compression with an effective .060 DH (.020 piston to top of cylinder +.040 step in heads) dropping almost a 1/2 a point. CHTs rose and I could not break the 30 mpg mark like I was getting before even with timing and jetting changes. Its been in that configuration with one exhaust change at 60k
Here is the combo:
Brazilian AS41 case
74mm CW CAST century crank
Rimco super rods
85.5 Forged Mahle
Engle W110 with wiesmann lifters
empi chromoly pushrods
solid shaft rockers with CB elephant foot adjusters
VW 043 heads with empi single high rev springs
26mm Shadek oil pump stock cover
Cast lightened 8 dowel flywheel.
Exhaust was an empi 1 3/8 premium flanged header with hide away muffler for most of its life until the mentioned upgrade to a 1 1/2 A1 sidewinder with AA muffler. One drag day test had a 1 1/2 S&S merged header with fat boy.
First carb setup was 34 epc. 26/28mpg after I fixed the casting flaw in the carb bady. Still didnt trust them so tried some real ICTs with same results. I was pretty disappointed as in previous builds the FRDs got me into the mid 30s with a light foot and thought Id get something similar. Used about 5K miles
Next dual 36DRLA. Testing at that point was the highest mpg at 33. They worked great for a while but started having issues with one carb so switched to dual kadrons. . The EIS performed similarly to the EPC with a bit more power on the top end. I could not get more than 25mpg out of them. The club had a track day and we all went to get some slips so I put on the only working duals I had at the time some 44 IDFs. This is the one time use of the S&S header. Low end suffered as to be expected but mid and top end was a blast til you hit the rev limiter (which came pretty quick 5500). 16.8 in the 1/4 was the best time that day. Back to ICTs and 1 3/8 for street use until inspection tear down at 10K miles.
Inspection got new gasket, main and rod bearings on the inside. CB rocker shaft kit and elephant foot adjusters replaced the empi shafts with the empi elephant feet going right into the trash. At this point it goes into the bus for a lot of hard miles ahead. A regular 800 mile round trip along with a daily 100 mile work commute gave me a ton of testing to do. After about 20K miles I got the 36DRLAs fixed so put them on and its been that way ever since. I did notice a small drop in off idle torque when I went to the A1 but didnt feel like it was working so hard in the mid range so had more power up to redline. The noise was also a huge increase over the hide away. Id like to try a dual series muffler but wonder on how much hp loss there is.
I guess the replacement 1800 waiting in the wings is the what would I build in 2013. There would still be changes made today if I had the cash.
German AS41 case
Empi 74mm crank
Scat I beam rods ARP bolts
AA 88mm pistons TW cylinders
Scat C45 9.2:1 advanced 5*
AA 502 40x35 Single high rev springs
Smith Brothers aluminum push rods
CB solid shaft and elephant foot on stock rockers
26mm o ring pump
dual 40 DRLAs and the 1 1/2 A1 will be going on this setup.
You may be wondering why so radical compared to the 1699 and its because its no longer a commuter. With reduction boxes I need more mid range power and liked how my old 1915 with a W120 pulled loads back in the day.
For a tame commuter I would build the following
74mm CB or Scat
CB or Scat rods
AA 88 TW
AA 500 35x32 Single hi rev
Web 218/119 and matching lifters
36 DRLA
1 1/2 header
You may be wondering about ignition. Even though a ton of testing on 010, 019, 094, the first 70K got a brazil 009 with tiger tail points. Stock bosch wires/plugs and a 20 yo mystery blue coil. At 60K a rebuilt 034 hooked up to the vacuum port on the left side carb went on with the same old blue coil. I had a ton of trouble with brand new condensers for a while till I slapped on the 30 yo condenser from the backup distributor. The old parts have yet to let me down.
It all I have time for at the moment let me know if there is anything else.
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cdennisg
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:56 am Post subject: Re: Grapes of Wrath $200 engine rebuild |
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Thanks for compiling all of that info.
Gonna take some time to process all of it, my brain has not thought of this stuff in detail for a few years. 
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VWNate
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Joined: October 04, 2016
Posts: 356
Location: Sunny So. Cal.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 8:29 am Post subject: GOOD THREAD ! |
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I can't believe the comments stopped three years ago .
Maybe not as many building their own engines .
As a VW Mechanic I learned all the tips you mention and appreciate your sharing them, knowledge not freely shared is worthless .
I especially liked the many good clear photographs .
I may hit POmona this august, how will I recognize you ?.
Now I'm off to read your cylinder head thread, so true about the lack of good cores and used parts these days .
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One last Beetle : 1959 #113 DeLuxe survivor ~ 36HP & full synchro tranny, 6 volts etc. |
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AlteWagen
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 10:47 am Post subject: Re: GOOD THREAD ! |
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| VWNate wrote: |
I can't believe the comments stopped three years ago .
Maybe not as many building their own engines .
As a VW Mechanic I learned all the tips you mention and appreciate your sharing them, knowledge not freely shared is worthless .
I especially liked the many good clear photographs .
I may hit POmona this august, how will I recognize you ?.
Now I'm off to read your cylinder head thread, so true about the lack of good cores and used parts these days . |
Thats what happens when you have another kid, start a farm, and move cross country during a pandemic. These days the farm machinery gets most of the attention, still keeping with my rule of not running anything younger than me leads to a lot of maintenance and repair. Lucky I love it so much!! Built a clean room for my future builds but the wife has her nice stuff in it at the moment, organizing the rest of the shop and property has taken forever and with our permits finally approved after 3 years now we get to start building.
In fact I think these days people are forced to build their own engines if they want to actually drive their car. More old guys retiring/dying not many left outside SoCal and even then you are getting charged old Porsche shop time. The problem is finding good machine shops that dont trash your case.
I havent been to Pomona for years, last time was when I was able to bring the first kid on my trike and hit the whole swap, man that was 6 years ago!! Now living in PNW I havent really hit any of the shows other than the Woodburn drags earlier this year. Swaps sure arent what they used to be, you think the Pomona vultures are bad they aint got nothing on these guys. The ratio of flippers to enthusiasts has switched for sure and the divide between the haves and have nots is very evident in the scene (not just VW). It seems the only youngsters entering the scene are the flippers just selling stuff to the old dudes with money to burn. I find conversations limited with those who dont work on their own ride and that seems to be the norm these days.
You will see I also have not updated the chart for a while on the head thread. There have been some advancements from CB, AA and Autolinea since then that I have not had any test data on or simply updated the list from the manufacturers published data. Then there was all the drama of one manufacturer being accused of stealing port design and falsifying flow data. I just wish Id get more input from Brian and Paul since they run a ton of tests on their flow bench and dynos and I feel they have un biased opinions/data that would help the community but also understand could kill manufacturers leaving even less to choose from.
I wish I could be more optimistic about vintage VWs but as I see the boomers do what boomers do everything else not much hope for all motor sports in general. I see these old rides suffering the same fate as the ford model T and As. Hard to give them away these days as most just look at them as relics rather than some childhood memory. I think Xers are the last generation to remember driving a VW as regular transportation, anyone younger Im not sure what the draw is. Since south of the border many still are growing up with beetles and buses the demographic has also shifted quite a bit. Hopefully these youngsters can help save the beetle and keep the memory of a helpful community alive
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type36
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Grapes of Wrath $200 engine rebuild |
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As an Australian Gen Xer at 16 my first set of wheels was a 60 golde sunroof bug, Ive always driven a vw as a daily or at least a weekly  i sympathize with life getting in the way, but some of that (the kids ) will have memories of riding to school etc in the single cab, beetle, type 3, or whatever. Mine have surprised me, daughter is now an apprentice with BMW as a mechanic and the lad who really showed no interest in mechanical things has bought a late rack and pinion L bug (the ex mighty mods YouTube Subaru bug, it turns out) and wants to rebuild it back to an air-cooled German look ride.
the sharing you and everyone else does putting their learning on "digital" paper means it is there for those that want to learn, Pre internet we learnt from trying things, books like Muirs how to keep you're VW alive (both good and bad things) and relatively decent guides like the Haynes manuals and of course from all the old guys trained by VW as mechanics by being a pest and hanging around their shops while trying not to pay them to fix you're broken shit....because you had no cash left till payday..
At least you Yanks have parts nearby...lol I can now afford to pay for better parts as I am sure a lot of Gen X can now but still cringe at the price if I have too, It is nearly impossible to find any decent original parts here in Australia and you should try rebuilding a Type IV for a Bay.... ouch!!
I guess what I am trying to say is that there is always hope when you have guys like you lot and your (our) next generation, some will want to keep it going... look at Blacksmithing and metal shaping resurgence , who know what the future holds, it might be a future with etanol/methanol fuels, hydrogen fuel cells in bays or Tesla conversions... may not be quite the same as figuring out why you're bug, bus or Square chose this particular moment at midnight in the rain to quit but stuff evolves, the world changes no matter what generation you are.. do what we all do, keep it going, find a way.. Ill always drive an air-cooled VW until they pry my feeble old or dead hands off the steering wheel - yeh I also have a nice diesel Toureg to tow stuff with, but I love my crusty 73 bay single reno truck more and the other 5 projects in the wings, including the worst example of a 59 Golde bug......
keep swinging spanners you lot.. |
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VWNate
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 2:31 pm Post subject: Helping Hands |
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Thanx both or you ! .
I'm a Boomer yet unlike most I grasp the concept of driving a stocker wide open anywhere I want to go Vs. burning rubber near my own place or at the Show & Shine and weeping/seeping/leaking oil every where with short engine life .
I remember when 'Dune Buggies & Hot VW's' magazine was new, I wasn't impressed but over the decades they've printed a lot of really helpful and accurate technical advice, tips and tricks plus they seem to be more vintage oriented than before .
I hear you about the PO-mona scene, sadly this is the same as all old vehicle areas, I remember trying to ask questions back in the day and most who had a spiffy shiny vehicle would make a point of insulting kids who simply wanted to learn, that's flat out STUPID because failure to interest new enthusiasts will kill off any group .
Anyways, I have questions I'd like to ask, feel free to post me links to the correct threads so I don't screw this one up .
Distributors ? as used on 36 HP engines.......
My 36HP is running an old BOSCH 019 "Screamer" dist. from the 1970's, I prefer to set the full advance timing (I drive the Mojave Desert regularly) and currently have it set to 17.5 degrees all in and the engine starts easily and doesn't seem get hot (I can hold the dipstick in my hands on a 100 + degree day after getting off the freeway) and it has good power etc. etc. but I'd like to have the charts if they're out there or maybe read some discussions about dizzy's .
I have a spare 195(4?) engine I'm pretty sure is virgin, if I need head works done I'll use those heads .
About your main bearing saddle comments ~ yes, if you see any gap that's bad but also, the Hanover plant where VWAG did factory rebuilds would plane the mating surfaces then bolt it up and align bore the main bearing saddles (& cam saddles) back to STD. and use shims to ensure proper cylinder / piston crown clearance .
These cases were clearly marked with an "0" on the case just above the pulley at the split because they also bored the last opening and fitted crank pulleys with over size oil threads to ensure no oil drips .
My son graduated high school in....1997 so right about that time I found him his 1st VW, a 1963 #117, for some reason he wanted a '63 with it's one year only sunroof handle, at that time I was still well known by most of the Vendors so they gave him good deals on various bits and bobs .
When I bought my last Beetle in 2016 we went back and this time he was the one with Vendor friends and they helped me out a bunch on the bits and bobs I wanted (free rear Bilstein shocks that are still on the car, they wanted rid of them because the sand rail they'd been on had YUUGE tires that had rubber small holes in the blue plastic covers).....
I'm told there will be another PO-mona this August, I look forward to going and see how good or bad it is .
I need a factory front bumper, rusty is fine, I need it unbent and will have it re chromed and toss out or give away the 197(?) Brazilian "WOLFE" thing on it now .
I'd also like to know if there's any discussion about main jets for 36's as current California Foo-Foo 'motor fuel' tends to run lean.....
Please feel free to tell me what you know as I'm always still learning .
TIA,
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One last Beetle : 1959 #113 DeLuxe survivor ~ 36HP & full synchro tranny, 6 volts etc. |
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