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Resolved:T4 cam bearing 021-198-541 T4 builders heads up
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:39 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 cam bearings 021-198-541 Reply with quote

RWK wrote:
I checked some that I have, comparison measured.
I stoned the new ones off on the parting line, the notch was high on new ones upwards of .005, OG were fine of course, just bought KS from classified, Metal leve are older, also checked some real old KS I got from FAT in late 80's (bought 2 sets for a build) they were about the same, maybe this will help? you'll have to draw your own conclusions.





Yes....this is part of the problem....really with any of the bearings we can get now.

Dies change over time. They wear and distort. Wherever metal is displaced during the stamping or the punching for the tab...it HAS to go somewhere.

This either changes teh arc of the flange on a thrust bearing or changes the contact angle of the straight leg of the open side of a bearing.....or causes a high spot on the open leg from the punching of the tab.

One would assume....that we had no issues years ago...because QC had a step to correct these against a grindstone or at least sort them as good or bad against a die checking standard.
In all of the stamping operations I have seen....the go-no-go standards that precision stamped parts...are used religiously....and renewed when worn.

From what i have seen for numerous years now....cam bearings....are a "hand fit". Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: T4 cam bearings 021-198-541 Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
RWK wrote:
I checked some that I have, comparison measured.
I stoned the new ones off on the parting line, the notch was high on new ones upwards of .005, OG were fine of course, just bought KS from classified, Metal leve are older, also checked some real old KS I got from FAT in late 80's (bought 2 sets for a build) they were about the same, maybe this will help? you'll have to draw your own conclusions.





Yes....this is part of the problem....really with any of the bearings we can get now.

Dies change over time. They wear and distort. Wherever metal is displaced during the stamping or the punching for the tab...it HAS to go somewhere.

This either changes teh arc of the flange on a thrust bearing or changes the contact angle of the straight leg of the open side of a bearing.....or causes a high spot on the open leg from the punching of the tab.

One would assume....that we had no issues years ago...because QC had a step to correct these against a grindstone or at least sort them as good or bad against a die checking standard.
In all of the stamping operations I have seen....the go-no-go standards that precision stamped parts...are used religiously....and renewed when worn.

From what i have seen for numerous years now....cam bearings....are a "hand fit". Ray


While it may get you there, hand fit is not the best solution Ray, although I acknowledge that sometimes it is the only solution. The Kolbenschmidt copper thrust ones, which were being sold 5 years ago were drop in. The Glyco were drop in. The factory ones were drop in. In a T1, and a t4 the center cam bearing saddle can distort with age. It needs reaming when that happens. In my situation this is a new case, and the oil strainer has never been installed so there has been no stress on that middle bearing. In fact that one fits perfectly. The 3 wide ones are the ones dragging. I'll know more later today when another Kolbenschmidt set arrives, and some older stock Mahle sets arrive. I can really closely inspect them before installing them. This is the first time in many VW engine builds I have run into this. I used to install V8 cam bearings all the time, and overhead cam ones, so I am familiar with line boring cam lines to straighten them, using a 3-edged babbitt knife to clean up wear areas etc. This is a new one to me. Trying to guess proper crush is not a good game to play.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 cam bearings 021-198-541 Reply with quote

Kolbenschmidt made it from AutoAtlanta - 3500 miles on time. USPS is still showing they have the Mahle in LA 500 miles away waiting to sort it even though they also show it was guaranteed delivery by noon. It is 4:30 pm now. We've had so much trouble with USPS the last 2 years I don't care if they privatize it and contract out the services. Pay those who have retirements coming with money set aside to do it, and be done with them. We've seen damage to things that someone had to run over to damage it. We've see fork lift damage thru boxes. We've had USPS tell us a claim was valid then never send the paperwork to release the check - 5 times on one claim. I've seen postal employees play basketball with boxes marked fragile.

These Kolbenschmidts are like the ones Riechert sent - aluminum with s 2008 stocking date. The copper thrust ones have 2013 photo dates so it looks like the copper ones were later production than these. Will post more as soon as USPS gets up off coffee break. We paid 1 day express and they still guarantee it to be an on time money back guarantee delivery even with SARS-2. I've read the workers are upset overtime was eliminated. Wait until mail in ballots arrive.............
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 cam bearings 021-198-541 Reply with quote

I’m not surprised that shipping is late and I would imagine that supply chains are still affected. Mahle oversized bearings have been out of stock all summer. Go to any store for anything and you will find many ordinary things out of stock.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:48 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 cam bearings 021-198-541 Reply with quote

orwell84 wrote:
I’m not surprised that shipping is late and I would imagine that supply chains are still affected. Mahle oversized bearings have been out of stock all summer. Go to any store for anything and you will find many ordinary things out of stock.

They are not oversize. They are STD.

USPS has a flyer on their webpage that if you pay extra for 1-day Express they still give a money back guarantee of 1 day delivery on it, where as all services except that may be affected. If you hand someone $50 extra to mow your lawn on Saturday instead of the following Tuesday, and they just shrug their shoulders Tuesday afternoon when they actually show up, and say I was busy Saturday, that person will be out of a job. Someone made a special trip to the post office at noon yesterday on their lunch to be sure that package made it out yesterday. USPS put them and me out. My vote is to dissolve USPS. We've seen lots of USPS screw ups here lately - including packages that do the equal of sending them out of the area to another area, to another area, and they arrive days late. I believe it is intentional, and there is an article in a Postal Worker paper recently published that suggests the USPS workers will be doing these things intentionally because they lost their overtime and some other perks as a result of recent changes trying to make them accountable. Having worked for the Government for near 15 years that kind of thing happens all the time. If you put a sign up no smoking in the building there are people who will take a big drag on a cigarette just as they enter the building, then exhale it in an elevator to piss people off that they aren't allowed to smoke in the building. I am not upset, just can't give an answer on the cam bearings today. I know how I will vote if asked to contract out USPS services.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 cam bearings 021-198-541 Reply with quote

I meant the oversized main bearings that I was looking for. I’m good with the Silverlines that I have, just wanted to slap them in for comparison.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 cam bearings 021-198-541 Reply with quote

my bore gauge starts at 1.4". Too big.

so I put the aluminum Kolbenschmidt into 1/2 the case and spun the cam a little back and forth. The production number is the same as the ones Riechert sent - Eh. They are show a 2008 stock date. This one rubs in the same spot as Riechert's set, but they have not been crushed yet so it is the actual bearing rubbing before it is crushed by the case halves being torqued. There are light ejector marks in that area on the back. There are two sets of photos below. One with just a tiny bit of cam rolling back and forth combined with the set that bound when torqued, and the next photo is the 2010 Kolbenschmidt copper set that works. Notice that there is no wear in the same spot on the copper bearing. The area around the tang punch is cleaner also. These copper ones have been in this case and the cam spins freely. Also the middle bearing is fine again although the cam thrust is too tight on the new wide aluminum one.

new bearing just fitted is rubbing, has not been crushed

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


here is a picture of the same production run when crushed

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Newer steel, copper babbitt plated set w/ 2000 miles has been crushed no wear in that area

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The aluminum bearing is too hard to fit (scrape) with a 3-bladed babbitt knife to remove the high spots. I think that these aluminum ones are just a poorly made quality.

Update: Found the cause as to these Kolbenschmidt bearings.

I put a new wide bearing on just cam and spun it without being in the case. Nice pattern. Then I put the 3rd one in the bearing saddle after widening the notch for the tang a tiny mount. It was better but it rubbed. So why does it rub in the case but not out of the case? See the photos below of the new bearing that just went into the case after the notch area was filed. There is absolutely no contact with the raised areas to the sides of the notch. I don't know if these will be usable. Have to sleep on it. Punching the tang at the factory distorted the whole corner. I saw it in the other set too but I thought it was the crush that did it. THE CAUSE IS the corner of the KS bearing is warped.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


2nd update: I have a fix but can't and don't want to execute it yet.

Old cam, feeler gauge, press, and case half or bearing saddle cut out of an old case. Bearing goes in, .002" feeler gauge wraps around old cam. Press into bearing shell. If that doesn't get it, .002" and .001" combined. They will wrap around cam and one can reform the bearing. Not a perfect solution but it would straighten the bearing probably enough to run it - although it could spring back.

3rd update Used a .002" and it wasn't enough. Went to a .003". Hit good cam journal with a towel over it and used a rubber mallet. Much better, less rub. This is definitely the problem, mis-shaped bearing shell. I can't generate the forces needed using a good cam. For now this is where we get off the train.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: T4 cam bearings 021-198-541 Reply with quote

I've got a used cam coming that will solve the problem by using it to straighten these alloy bearings. Two Mahle sets will be in when USPS decides to grow up, and I have the Kolbenschmidt set already that will work. I found an old set at BugCity but Dave is impossible to work with anymore, he'll raise his price just because you want to buy it. Like I told Don - it's $80 take or leave it. Oh you want it, then it's $100. Don't like that then it's not for sale. I won though, the money is still in my wallet - try to trade old oxidized cam bearings at the liquor store for a nice bottle of wine......... He knows how to get a hold of me if he decides to sell it for what he had it listed at. No hard feelings, and if someone buys it for the $100 then I am happy for him. Really. So there is today's update on the cam bearings.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 cam bearings 021-198-541 Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
RWK wrote:
I checked some that I have, comparison measured.
I stoned the new ones off on the parting line, the notch was high on new ones upwards of .005, OG were fine of course, just bought KS from classified, Metal leve are older, also checked some real old KS I got from FAT in late 80's (bought 2 sets for a build) they were about the same, maybe this will help? you'll have to draw your own conclusions.





Yes....this is part of the problem....really with any of the bearings we can get now.

Dies change over time. They wear and distort. Wherever metal is displaced during the stamping or the punching for the tab...it HAS to go somewhere.

This either changes teh arc of the flange on a thrust bearing or changes the contact angle of the straight leg of the open side of a bearing.....or causes a high spot on the open leg from the punching of the tab.

One would assume....that we had no issues years ago...because QC had a step to correct these against a grindstone or at least sort them as good or bad against a die checking standard.
In all of the stamping operations I have seen....the go-no-go standards that precision stamped parts...are used religiously....and renewed when worn.

From what i have seen for numerous years now....cam bearings....are a "hand fit". Ray


While it may get you there, hand fit is not the best solution Ray, although I acknowledge that sometimes it is the only solution. The Kolbenschmidt copper thrust ones, which were being sold 5 years ago were drop in. The Glyco were drop in. The factory ones were drop in. In a T1, and a t4 the center cam bearing saddle can distort with age. It needs reaming when that happens. In my situation this is a new case, and the oil strainer has never been installed so there has been no stress on that middle bearing. In fact that one fits perfectly. The 3 wide ones are the ones dragging. I'll know more later today when another Kolbenschmidt set arrives, and some older stock Mahle sets arrive. I can really closely inspect them before installing them. This is the first time in many VW engine builds I have run into this. I used to install V8 cam bearings all the time, and overhead cam ones, so I am familiar with line boring cam lines to straighten them, using a 3-edged babbitt knife to clean up wear areas etc. This is a new one to me. Trying to guess proper crush is not a good game to play.



"Hand fit"...is exactly what you are doing in this thread in your latest posts. It means correcting what you can when you can for a proper fit.....and while it is 100% true that 10 years ago...KS dropped in....Glyco dropped in....Metal Leve dropped in....its not true any longer.

If you have the time and money....you can shop and shop and shop to get NOS...that "may" drop in......or just as easily take the best you can find now of new build....and competently correct the minor flaws to make the bearings 100% usable.

Sadly its this way with a HUGE range of current build ACVW parts.

These problems are why I am no longer in the mind of lets do a new project car every other year. Its just not worth the cost and aggravation to find enough parts to do them all factory correct (which is not always the best anyway).
I build my personal engines with top notch parts like pistons and cylinders and main bearings that I have hoarded for the day when I will need them....which is now.

Small parts that are good enough with corrections like cam bearings....not an issue at all.

So while it may not be ideal.....in my opinion....neither is wasting money money and time searching for drop in NOS parts that will actually function no better than a set I had to file and hand fit. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:33 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 cam bearings 021-198-541 Reply with quote

Ray - my concern on bearings is that it doesn't take much for a crisis, but it is a lot of work to remedy after the fact. I bought a spare used cam from Nick, Aerosurfer, he is doing well. I will use that cam with a feeler gauge and brass hammer to straighten any bad bearings. But it is for sport only and I will never use them. I am also after the -2 aluminum gear because that is what my new case takes, and what the old case takes. The worn bearings work fine and considering that the glyco bearings ran a copper thrust with no coating for many years, these appear similar but with a lite babbitt lubrication layer. The lathe marks are still visible on the babbitt and in the copper so the babbitt could not have been very deep, maybe a few mils. I will try the older Mahle and if they work buy the rest of the stock and offer them to others here. If they don't work I'll report it. I have no idea on the Silverline but some people say they threw theirs in the trash. Playing with bearings is dangerous business if one plans long trips and reliable cars. These aren't thick babbitt cam bearings like a Chevy where a 3 bladed babbitt knife can trim a little off with some dye to get the right clearance. It is a PITA to split and put together a case over and over to fit cam bearings.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 cam bearings 021-198-541 Reply with quote

real education on cam bearings circa 2020 for me. The Mahle blue box came in. They are plastic heat shrinked in 2 sets of 3 bearings each in the box vs the other Mahle red and white that were sealed in a six cup plastic tray. The box is clearly printed Mahle but the fine print on the bottom says Mahle Metal Leve, SP Brazil and Argentina. They are steel backed and look better than the alloy Kolbenschmidt which are wavy and distorted on the 3 wide ones.

Looking at other cam bearing threads the last 5+ years, the Silverline when low miles worn look identical to the Kolbenschmidt tri-metal when low miles worn, with copper showing from underneath the thin layer of plating. Others noticed back in 2013 that the tri-metal KS ones always dropped in with no fitting issues. Others suggested Silverline and the red white box Mahle are a hit and miss situation, some end up so bad they go into the trash. I can verify that. I feel like I am writing a review of T4 bus cam bearings when my original intent was simply to put a set of cam bearings in, verify the cam was free spinning and build an engine. This has been almost a month trying to find decent cam bearings for a T4.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 cam bearings 021-198-541 Reply with quote

1/2 the bearing in. Just putzing around. The thrust was too wide to go into the cam, put it between two aluminum blocks and lightly tapped then put into the case. Perfect fit, endplay is around .002" I think just wiggling it. Tapped the other bearings in with the aluminum block on top of them. Here is the cam in the 1/2 case. So far so good. It would not do this with the red and white Mahle set or either of the aluminum alloy KS sets.

http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/CamSpinMahleML.mp4
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 cam bearings 021-198-541 Reply with quote

Other halves in, case together, and torqued. Spins like a champ. Success. These Mahle Metal Leve Brazil/Argentina are drop in. Only thing I had to do was put the thrust bearing on an aluminum block, another block on top and very lightly tap it. That paralleled the thrust surfaces. Back to the engine build, checking clearances, lash etc. With the alloy KS and the red and white box Mahle I could barely move the crank and cam when the case was bolted together. If you are doing a T4 engine build or plan to you need to get a set of bearings from him. They are only $20 a set shipped. I paid almost 4x that for Kolbenschmidt alloy ones from Porsche that need work before they can be used.

MP4 showing how freely it turns:
http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/CamBearingSuccess.mp4
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Resolved:T4 cam bearing 021-198-541 T4 builders heads up Reply with quote

Funny you mention it, the bearings I had trouble with came in the red box with partitions but they were the double thrust HD bearings with the oil groove. The set that fit easily came in a small red Mahle box and were shrinkwrapped. I just received a couple Mahle sets in the small blue box also shrinkwrapped. I ordered them thinking I was going to give the double thrust thing another shot, but I have kind of moved on since.

Hard to say if that means anything. The next batch of shrinkwrapped blue box Mahle bearings could all be shit. Who knows? I'm glad you solved the problem though.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Resolved:T4 cam bearing 021-198-541 T4 builders heads up Reply with quote

orwell84 wrote:
Funny you mention it, the bearings I had trouble with came in the red box with partitions but they were the double thrust HD bearings with the oil groove. The set that fit easily came in a small red Mahle box and were shrinkwrapped. I just received a couple Mahle sets in the small blue box also shrinkwrapped. I ordered them thinking I was going to give the double thrust thing another shot, but I have kind of moved on since.

Hard to say if that means anything. The next batch of shrinkwrapped blue box Mahle bearings could all be shit. Who knows? I'm glad you solved the problem though.


I think it does mean something. Most of the bearings ...hand full of sets...I have seen that are the really nice machine work oil groove and double thrust....the ones from the type 4 store....fit really well. I also know they "used" to do that machine work and make up the sets themselves. I do not know that for sure now.

I can tell you that the plating r surface finish...looks thicker. I will see if I have the time to measure a set of mine...if I can.

As I have noted repeatedly though....any fit issues can be corrected. If your cam thrust surface is not an issue....and f your cam journals are the correct diameter on your new cam....the issues that arise are 100% in the clamping and crush.

Its either going to be twist in one or both shells...which is corrected by filing one or both legs after test fitting...or by correcting the radius on the thrust flange either by working the bearing and/or adjusting the chamfer on the case or both.

Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Resolved:T4 cam bearing 021-198-541 T4 builders heads up Reply with quote

there are three or four types of boxes Kolbenschmidt comes in.

there are four or five types of boxes Mahle comes in

I can't say about Silverline

Glyco has many different boxes over the years

Metal Leve has different boxes

Some Clevite bearings are also Kolbenschmidt bearings. I've read that the tri-metal Kolbenschmidt were Clevite tri-metal. Mahle and Clevite are under the same roof, and that some Kolbenschmidt products were reboxed Mahle.

Based on this cam bearing experience I think the lesson learned is that it isn't the brand that works or doesn't work, but rather what production facility they are made in and when. The clue for me is the box markings.

If you find a set that works as a drop in with minimal hassle, get yourself some spare. I can tell you which STD Mahle set worked for me if you are going to buy them now. If you aren't going to buy them now don't PM me because I will buy what the seller has and keep them for a rainy day. He has about a half dozen sets left. Whether he can get more I don't know but I've asked. The stocking date was 2019. The stocking date on the tri-metal Kolbenschmidt was 2010. I understand they were discontinued about 2013. I've written the T4 store to go thru their stock to see if they have the tri-metal sets minus the thrust bearing.

WHAT I AM TELLING YOU IS THAT if you are going to build a T4 engine sometime in your life with STD cam bearings you better pony up $20 each, and get a couple sets of cam bearings that are known to work while they are around. I spent A MONTH and about $250 trying to find a drop in cam bearing that worked. Each set failed until today. How long will they work, who knows. But there is a better way to set the thrust than hitting the cam. The reason is that it pushes the bearing in the saddle so it leaves a little play between the bearing and case. The way to set the thrust is to put it between two strong parallel surfaces that don't flex, and gently less than a love tap the top one. It doesn't take much to compress it so it fits with perfect clearance.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:39 am    Post subject: Re: Resolved:T4 cam bearing 021-198-541 T4 builders heads up Reply with quote

Those sets I posted earlier measurements of, cover the last 30-35 years except the og which came from an early EA engine, the wall stock on all the unused were similar at .049 at the oil hole (6 oclock) and .048-.0485 near the PL. which also explains the worn OG at .046 at the oil hole, but that wear would be from valve spring pressure also, (ovalty?) odd also was the un worn area at the PL on the original, still at .048, giving .0015 clearance P.S. still at PL but .0035 at saddle.
Draw your own conclusions, what I found odd.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:41 am    Post subject: Re: Resolved:T4 cam bearing 021-198-541 T4 builders heads up Reply with quote

Did not have a silverline to check, but did have a metaleve
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:59 am    Post subject: Re: Resolved:T4 cam bearing 021-198-541 T4 builders heads up Reply with quote

Great information here! I was on my second set of Kolbenschmidt alloys wondering if I was doing something wrong. First set had a shell so badly distorted it wouldn’t stay put in the case. I had them send another set it too had a bad shell. I was about to try an make one set from the two. Then I started reading this thread so I decidedto Dutch the alloys to grab a set I found online. They just happened to be the blue box Mahle. They are a perfect fit. And the package is much more appropriate for bearings! Gonna grab an extra set for future builds.
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alman72
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Joined: October 09, 2014
Posts: 2573
Location: MICHIGAN
alman72 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:42 am    Post subject: Re: Resolved:T4 cam bearing 021-198-541 T4 builders heads up Reply with quote

how about a link used to get the blue box Mahle? i understand that it may not be what is recieved, but worth a shot for drop in
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