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"There she dribbles...."
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:32 pm    Post subject: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

Ok I have a confession. In 45 years I have built many T1 and some T4 engines. In all those years I have built Beetle engines that did not drip oil, but nary a bus engine. Every single bus engine there are a few drops per 100 miles. Come home from a long trip and there will be three to a half dozen drips of oil on the floor. I don't know why but 5,000 - 20,000 miles are drip free then it starts.

I've had them drip between case halves near the back under the oil pump, I've had main seals leak, I've had cracks in cases leak (high mileage 1600 DP), a dowel cut the flywheel to the grooves (high mileage 1600 DP - like 300,000 miles), I've seen main seals weep on the outside at the part lines, had a input shaft seal leak once, the list is endless.

During those years I have used Gasgacinch, Permatex #2, Permatex Aviation sealant, 3m elephant snot, Curil K2, and maybe several more. The all leaked. 10 years ago the bug shops here in town swore by Curil-K2 (brown), now they swear by Curil-T (green). Jake swore by Curil-K2 10 years ago and two engines that I used it on leaked. So - is there anything out there that doesn't drip when you park in the garage? If you park on dirt it doesn't count. You have to be able to swear on a bible that after a 100 mile trip in a bus with either a T1 or T4 engine at 45,000 miles on the engine there is not one drop on your garage floor. Beetles don't count, I have build Beetles that don't leak. Same sealant in a bus leaked.
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babysnakes
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:51 pm    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

I have no first hand experience, but I have read the old timers used a single string of dental floss on the case parting line as a gasket. It sounds sketchy to me. They just like to mark their spot. Seems like they have a competition with old Harleys.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

I'm pretty good at building motorcycle engines. I tried once to build a leak free AMF Harley - pulled out all of the tricks. Still leaked.

My bus doesn't leak enough to leave drips on the ground - just a shiny residue in a few places so I don't complain.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

babysnakes wrote:
I have no first hand experience, but I have read the old timers used a single string of dental floss on the case parting line as a gasket. It sounds sketchy to me. They just like to mark their spot. Seems like they have a competition with old Harleys.


Smile I've come to that conclusion also. Some folks suggest 00 silk instead of floss. I suspect that the stresses on a bus motor cause the case to flex over time so it just pushes any sealant out. The most I have gotten with no drip is about 15,000 - 20,000 miles. Once it starts it never stops. I change oil faithfully so it shouldn't be contaminants in the oil causing problems. I haven't tried Curil-T but I found one thread where a guy who used it had 3 engines that leaked so he stopped using it.

cmonSTART wrote:
I'm pretty good at building motorcycle engines. I tried once to build a leak free AMF Harley - pulled out all of the tricks. Still leaked.

My bus doesn't leak enough to leave drips on the ground - just a shiny residue in a few places so I don't complain.


how many miles on it since it was assembled?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:09 pm    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

50K+ on my last. Probably only 5k on this build.

Edit: Actually I did have some issues early on with my first build - it took me a couple of front main seals to get one that was oil tight. Those red Reinz seals didn't like my crank for some reason.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

My old 1800 was wet on the bottom by 250K miles, but except in unusual circumstances didn't drip. Been a long time, but I probably used Aviation Permatex. It certainly had leaks at times over the years, most notably having a couple of oil pressure switches that went bad, a few bouts with valve cover gaskets that shrank over time, and a dipstick tube boot or three, but the case halves joint and cylinder to block junctions didn't leak much of anything.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

Quote:
much


looking for "any" determined by parking on a concrete floor.

What CommonStart use for the 50K engine? Park on a concrete floor?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

A friend of mine still swears by Indian Head for sealing the case halves. He has been using it for decades. He uses more modern sealants on other parts of the case.

Soon to be rebranded non-binary indigenous North American person head.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

orwell84 wrote:
A friend of mine still swears by Indian Head for sealing the case halves. He has been using it for decades. He uses more modern sealants on other parts of the case.

Soon to be rebranded non-binary indigenous North American person head.


Careful. I have Native American Cherokee, and Plains in my ancestry..... .

That said, the problem with professional engine builders is that very few care what happens after 1 year or so. They build an engine and if the owner doesn't complain then its good to go. I've read hundreds of pages on engine sealers and have yet to find a bus owner who has posted in one that they figured it out. We have maybe 150 threads here on engine sealers. That isn't the question - the question is who has built a bus engine that didn't ooze oil after a while and specifically how did they do it. In the 150 or so threads here some people like A, some like B, some like C. Many bus owners have tried each of those and they leaked. I've built Beetle motors that didn't leak. I don't think they see the same stresses.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:47 pm    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

yamabond or subabond has worked great for me. they will always sweat from the oil pump no matter what.

yes, both of the above are very much like RTV and yes, both manufacturers use a split case design for engines and transmissions.

subabond is very much like (*cough*) ultra grey

yamabond is almost like 3M monkey snot weather strip adhesive in terms of consistency but works 100%. can't have a vacuum leak on a 2 stroke. when it dries, its kind of rubbery like RTV.

personally I like subabond, but it's expensive
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

Don are you using these on Air Cooled VW engines too?

Maybe Ray can comment since he is the guru on chemicals. In layman's terms and short Ray. Smile

PRODUCT NAME: TB1215 Yamabond 4-MCPRODUCT
DESCRIPTION: RTV Silicone
PRODUCT CODE: ACC-BOND4-MC-00
DISTRIBUTOR:ThreeBond International


Subaru Super Three Bond 1215 (Subabond) Tube 004403007
Product Code: SUBOEM-004403007
PRODUCT NAME: ThreeBond1215
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION: One component silicone rubber compound
RODUCT CODE: ThreeBond1215
CHEMICAL NAME: Wt.%
Calcium carbonate 40 - 60
2-Butanone, O, O', O''-(ethenylsilylidyne) trioxime 6 - 7
Fumed Silica< 1
Toluene< 0.1
COMMENTS: Methyl ethyl ketoxime (MEKO #96-29-7):cracked gas

Also Ray - what would be the expected shelf life of Curil K2 if it was kept sealed properly. I have some that is 10 years old but it stirs and is like it was when new. The Curil-T is the same, what is its expected shelf life if kept sealed. Some sealers can last 20 - 25 years, others 6 months once opened. Curil gives a minimum shelf life, not a maximum.

Both K2 and T are an "artificial resin" with a neutral pH.

curil-t
ethanol, ethyl alcohol
silicon dioxide
ethyl acetate
Maptha
Fatty acids
triphenylmethane
pin-2(3)-ene
https://tech-beac.com/sites/default/files/support-document/MSDS-Elring-Curil%20T_0.pdf


K2
Ethanol, ethyl alcohol
Potassium aluminum silicate (Mica)
Silica gel
silicon dioxide
https://media1.svb-media.de/media/snr/506326/pdf/s...e003c6.PDF
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:14 pm    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

Steve, you gotta caravan with us some time… The secret to keeping oil off the ground is to clog the offending orifices with fine dust from forest roads, beaches, and various 4x4 paths!

40k is about where I start to see a drip… Curil-T has worked better than Curil-K for me, though pushrod tube seals are where I start to see a wetness first. No sweat on any oil pumps over here, but my main seal likes to puke if I fill more than half a quart over full…

I'd swear on anything that Brian's new engine didn't leak a drop on our 2,900 mile trip this year. We'll get back to you in a few years…

Robbie
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:09 am    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

I built many type 4 engines decades ago. The last one that got a real test was kind of a hot rod motor that I put in my Champagne Edition bus. The original case, crank and rods, now I think of it. I had a few ancillary leaks over the several years I drove it: Dipstick tube and rocker covers a few times. But it always stayed perfectly dry.
Still have the motor. To my everlasting shame, I CUT UP the CEII, thinking my new WBX Vanagon would be the forever replacement. When I find another CEII, I have the motor.
Quite certain I used Yamabond on it. My brother was building lot of Porsche motors and had moved on to Curil, and the part container of Yamabond was a gift. (as was a 911SC a few years later.)
One will never keep oil inside if you have very much crankcase pressure. This motor had NPR 96's, which I believe to this day to be the best ever replacement P & C's. They balanced to within a 1/4 gram out of the box. My machine shop friend was impressed. So, my guess is that they sealed pretty well, also.
That motor was used VERY hard. Many times I saw the speedo needle straight down.(still crazy after all these years?)
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:38 am    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

I was taught to never use any type of sealant, like silicone, that would not squeeze completely flat and hold the case halves apart even ever so slightly. Maybe that's an old wives tale, but it was one I adhered to, not knowing any different. I have always used Gaskacinch, but a couple of years ago it changed composition, so I don't know if it still is as good.
I have built several type 4 motors that didn't leak until many years and many miles. After gaskacinch changed, I decided to try something else, so went with Locktite 518. Doesn't harden at all, weird. Used it on the parting line of a waterboxer. Doesn't leak at the case part, but I have almost no miles on it yet. Oil pump leaks at the cover already, tho.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:44 am    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

I’ll be d*** , Steve.

Looking back , every single Atype I sealed to no drip with Permatex Aviation.

Every Bus engine Was clean for no more than three years

I suspect case Flex is the reason
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:51 am    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

Random used turnkey 1700 bought for £150 - 30,000 miles later.
I'd love to know how it was done. Bus was sold on.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:52 am    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

During the early covid shutdown I took the engine out and put alot of new seals and original oil pump. Still have a couple drips on the cardboard in the garage. I've tried for years to stop it. Finally gave up and bought this patch that I wear proudly.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

Neither of my buses drip, at all. I find it hard to believe but it's true. I check every time too since it's parked right outside the door on asphalt. Lots and lots of times after 400-500 miles driving straight home I pull in and park it (for days) and never a drop (ok there was a few drops one time because my used oil cooler seals needed changed but that's fixed). One engine has about 10k on it and the other about 50k, both stock 1600 dp and the longs blocks built by Heads Flow Masters. No idea what he uses. Both were new Brazilian cases.
As Robbie mentioned, maybe a little fine dust helps but I try and keep them reasonably clean.
There is smoke starting to blow out the exhaust though when going downhill in gear on the 50k engine. Still runs perfect but showing signs of how hard I have beat on it I guess. I do drive them hard on long trips year round fully loaded usually with 4 people and lots of gear.
I don't remember Colins or Robbies leaving any marks when they have been here either. You can pretty much eat off their engines. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
Don are you using these on Air Cooled VW engines too?


yes. and I have always had a damp oil pump after 15-20k...even if I squeak the gaskets between my fingers with sealant. its more like an oil vapor, something like what you'd see by a oil fill cap with a weak gasket, or a ton of blow by.

every T1 road draft tube has a booger...I mean it's just the design of it

when I got into doing yamahoopty engines years ago I made the switch. they use both aluminum and magnesium engines.

a lot of the jap stuff is sealed up by threebond:

https://threebond.com/wp-content/uploads/Products-Guide_ver6-LOCAL.pdf

I have installed a few engines by 1 vendor who uses yellow 3 bond and I have never seen a drip. I have all but stopped building ACVW engines for people because it isn't worth my time and there is zero money to be made but the liability is still high.
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my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
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most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." Reply with quote

reading all the replies and thinking each thru, I see a few folks have reached that dry case on a bus. Will see if I can duplicate it and post in 50,000 miles. In the meantime maybe I need one of those patches. Smile It is possible to reach that dry case on a bus it appears.

FWIW just as a side comment - the first 3 or 4 bus T1 engines built in the 1970's used Gascacinch. They lasted drip free about 15,000 to 20,000 miles but I drove those engines quite hard as daily drivers and sustained 75 - 80 mph on desert trips. That is a lot of RPM for an engine bolted to an 002 trans and stock tires. When I used it on my first T4 engine it seemed different than the product of the 70's, and oozed at 1,000 miles.

Robbie you might get a kick out of this - totally unrelated. I was working in the garage the other day and got interrupted in the process. I was working on cam bearings. The next day I was cleaning the workbench to get ready to move on to another step. There were 3 cam half shells on the workbench. ??? Oops. Had to split the case and check that step again. This SARS-2 thing has Cathy working at home, and she is out there doing laundry which interupts my focus. I like to work without clothes washer and dryer doors banging next to me as I try to think about what I will do next.
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