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Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

I guess I wasn’t clear. The switch above will work fine in an 1/8” pipe thread hole. A “t” fitting with the proper in and out diameter to fit in line with an 1/8” inch female and your good to go. It might require an external ground wire.

If your looking for a non vw switch, Ford and Chevy used something similar from that era. You can buy them with different pressure range from JEGS or Summit. I have a 30psi one in the race car connected to a bright giant light.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:57 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
Something like this. https://www.jbugs.com/product/021919081B.html


Thanks for that!
Should be easy to integrate one of these into my system. I have a brass Tee after the pump that I could tap a port into, I think.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
1/8” npt and 10 mm x 1.0 are very similar. The difference is the metric switch requires a crush washer to seal. The 1/8” npt will seal on the threads.


Yes NPT is conical, but I would never put it on in a female M10x1, if you stick with it forever ok, but if you go back to M10x1 the threads would technically be damaged, even so lightly they may be. Metric switches are not hard to source, mind as well do it correctly like it’s supposed to Razz
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

I'm basing this on my experience with an air cooled 1600. Unlike the WBX the pressure switch case threads on the 1600 are tapered not straight. It wasn't till the water cooled VW's and Audi's that the switch got a straight thread and a sealing washer at least in this country.

So, the switch above is a tapered metric thread, not a straight thread and if you were using the above switch it would seal fine in a brass T with 1/8" pipe femaler or you could get a similar switch with 1/8" pipe female threads.

To be clear I was not talking about jamming and 1/8th" male pipe thread into a VW wbx case. Make sense?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Looks like the OE WBX low press switch would be perfect
028919081D
0.1-0.35 Bar NC

So, low pressure, light and/or electrical shock direct to the temples - on!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

I surrender.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
I'm basing this on my experience with an air cooled 1600. Unlike the WBX the pressure switch case threads on the 1600 are tapered not straight. It wasn't till the water cooled VW's and Audi's that the switch got a straight thread and a sealing washer at least in this country.

So, the switch above is a tapered metric thread, not a straight thread and if you were using the above switch it would seal fine in a brass T with 1/8" pipe femaler or you could get a similar switch with 1/8" pipe female threads.

To be clear I was not talking about jamming and 1/8th" male pipe thread into a VW wbx case. Make sense?


Clear like crystal now Razz
On a funny note they sell tapered pressure switches for Vanagon at Napa and the like, I always wondered why, now with aircooled being tapered it makes sense they thought it was compatible. I didn`t know the aircooled`s were tapered Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

to follow up on my oil cooler:
Syncro transaxle rebuilt ~15k ago. Oil cooler/filtration system installed ~7500 ago. I use the weddle pump pulling oil from the drain. Then through Magnom, weddle filter, weddle/setrab cooler, and back into the trans through the fill hole. The cooler is located in the space where the stock Syncro airbox goes. I have a Bostig conversion with the transmission skid plate. I repurposed my rear heater switch and manually activate recirculate (only run pump) or cool (run pump and radiator). I measure temperature through the Ford ECU and it is displayed on my UltraGauge. After ~7500 miles of monitoring, I find oil temps are 50-60 F above ambient in fourth gear at ~65 mph. In 100F heat, the system does well in keeping oil temps below 170F. no leaks. I am very happy with the system.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

also...I drilled large holes in the trans skid plate for better air circulation without sacrificing protection. Setrab provides dimensions/volumes for their hoses/cooler. Based on my calculations I have about 1qt added volume. So I fill the trans up to the fill hole then add another quart.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:01 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Curious how the temp sensor is connected to the Ford ECU. Was that a stock input?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

I worked with Jim to make it happen. I use an AT ECU, which has pins that support a transmission fluid temperature reading. I use the UltraGauge MX to program a custom gauge that can interpret this parameter. There was some sensor characterization and UltraGauge calibration that I needed to do. Its really quite slick. il be posting a detailed doc about it on the Bostig FB page soon.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

I figured there was something more to it.

Are you using any sort of restrictor on the return to spray the oil into the case, or is it just flowing in? My oiling plate ends up in front of the fill hole I believe.

You might post something in this thread to keep it relative. Hard as it may be to believe, not everyone has sold their souls to Facebook. Yet!!!
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

the cooled oil just flows into the fill...no directing the oil spray. There were oil plates installed during the rebuild.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Vmorris ^^I see^^ your Weddle pump mounted vertical.

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My Weddle pump is mounted vertical too.
It got water in it somehow.
I ran this pump for 5 years, but at some point it filled with water.
I have never driven in deep water, this is from driving in the rain.
Bummer.

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The bearing rusted stuck and it struggled hard, popped fuses, eventually froze up.
I replaced the bearing but it was lame, it didn't have the power or volume as before, pumping less than 1 GPM instead of 2+GPM.
The brushes were still as-new.
The pump gears were still as-new.
But I suppose the windings were no longer as-new (it smelled burnt).

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I bought a new pump and drilled two drain holes.
The pump body is nickel-plated brass, about 3mm thick in that location.
There's nothing behind for at least 1/2 inch, you can drill it on-car.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
RCMD you're on it! Summer's coming, interested to hear your results. Member Jalan did this too, but NOT drilling thru the case.

The one concern I have with this method is..... We know the oil peals off 4th gear and hits the wall, but maybe it focuses on different places at different speeds. What we need to know, is where the 4th gear oil hits at 70 mph.

========

Here's my current oil cooler system schematic.
Some changes to revision "E".
I print this and keep it in my Bentley.

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I've made the "key-cancel device" with the little 10A PCB relays, it's much smaller. And then I made some with ICs. But my van is currently running that big stack of Bosch relays.

This system works well, almost like "OEM". But the OEMs wouldn't give you a manual override button to goof around with on long drives... Wink




Hey Sodo, any new updates to this system roadmap?

I am trying to get my filter/cooling system set up. Frankensubi AKA David picked up one of your fill-hole "squirters" for me when he stopped by your place after Delasyncro last fall. Long story short I put 11.5k in my Sycnro's drive train this last summer and it's been sitting waiting for me to figure out the filter and cooling setup. So after many conversations with Dave, Alika, and T3tris, I bought the Weddle pump, oil cooler they offer, the canton 8-micron filter, and the weddle temp sender as well. I am running an ej25 with a KEG bell housing adapter plate and the small car engine mount and SS header. I am going to pull from the drain with Alika's banjo fitting, through a check valve, to the pump then through the canton filter and onto the oil cooler then back to through your squirter. BTW I asked Ken German trans to pre-drill for fittings for a filter/cooler setup and he told me that it was a waste of money so I didn't proceed. Anyway, GTA rebuilt the transaxle with a new Guard 4.86 R&P. a new Guard main shaft 1st and 2nd. A heavy-duty guard 1.25 3rd and HD .85 4th. The all gears, the case, and the gear carrier were sleeved. I am also running 225/70 R16 Toyo AT3 FYI. This will all be under the stress of a three-knob NAHT Syncro. At the moment I am planning on adding a temp sensor to the trans sump area as this is the newly recommended area for decent real-time oil temp. I bought the Weddle temp switch just in case but I would like to have the option to operate the pump manually like you have set up in your design but also have it auto controlled by the temp to actuate the pump when the oil reaches the optimal temp ( what that is IDK, 110-120*?). As far as the cooler goes I was thinking of having another temp sensor to actuate the fan when temps get above say 155- 160* if and when that ever happens. T3tris never gets up there. I was thinking of going with your Ink bird temp controller design with the DPDT relay Tencent suggested in this thread as that may be a bit simpler to set up. Basically your system but with the single relay rather than the 4 Bosch relays. I also see folks are incorporating the FSM 145 oil diverter/manifold for the cooler and fan. An inline temp switch for the fan would be nice but I can't source anything lower than 180*.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Theres so much to type.
Highlights are:
Don’t bother with the Weddle switch. Its too inaccurate.
GTA's advice is valid for a WBX especially with all new gears.
Filtering is awesome for break-in trash, and then again at the far end as it starts to shed.
Also good if your rebuild has used parts that might start shedding metal someday.

Yeah theres validity to the thermostat bypass, I’m going to add that soon.
Your loading with a hiTop and EJ25 is likely much higher than T3TRIS, who has a sensible engine & lower top.
But the temp gauge will tell you what you need to know. Stay away from 180F (160 max?)”, thats where damage starts. Thats on a new, tight trans.

There is no need for a check valve, the Weddle pump can pull at least 24” vertical suction, likely more.

If you have “oiling plates” they block the nozzle’s straight shot to 4th gear.
I have high confidence oiling plates work when you don’t need them (oil cool), speed slow.
I have little confidence that work when you do need them (oil hot, speed high).
But it IS possible they help.

Search “HiLetGo latching relay”. I can’t recall why I didn’t like TenCent’s double relay but it doesn’t do “something” correctly. It seems like I wrote the reason^^above^ somewhere. I’m still using the 4-bosch-relay setup but lots are running the HiLetGo unit.

----------------

Latest and most significant developments are the 4th gear erosion realization that it likely has an electrical component (an EDM machining process in your gearbox).

And delete that danged front transaxle ground, you DONT want any current going to the extremities of a stack of old corroded trans cases and bolts. You will have to ground the starter bolt though. And ground the alternator too. Especially if you have LiFePO (400watts of hi-beams too). Eqpt grounding gets important when the path consists of old magnesium cases, outdoors, bolt heads & threads of dissimilar materials etc. Cleaning and maintaining the last connection probably makes it even "worse" because you're beckoning more electricity to the extremities.

And the advice to “decel” every few minutes to let oil into 4th gear needle bearing. Helical gear pressure pushes 4th gear against the mainshaft bearing which seals the 4th gear thrust area from lubrication The big engine pushes too hard, too constantly; WBX downshifts to 3rd more often. A DriveByWire engine has a run-on (for emissions) that prevents momentary decel.

There's NO WAY I'd develop a responsible "habit" to decel every few minutes.

What I do (now) is "drive 65" and when I see 70…… I take my foot OFF THE PEDAL which provides decel to 65. You need "actual decel" to back 4th gear off the mainshaft bearing thrust area & let lubrication in. Don’t just ease-up, use that 70mph cue - to oil your 4th gear needle bearing. Soccer-mom didn’t have to do this back in ‘88 cuz she had a WBX, didn’t sustain 70 uphill.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb


Last edited by Sodo on Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:10 am; edited 5 times in total
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DuncanS
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Wow--Hats off to you, Sodo, and all who have put so much time and effort into reengineering the tranny to handle more HP. Very impressive.
I especially love your last post which gives an overview of the main aspects of what is and isn't important. In a project like this it's so easy to go off on a tangent that seems to be necessary, but actually isn't. Wish JPL could do a 4 th gear oil spray study at 70 MPH.

Congrats--you make me feel like the piker I am.

Duncan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

So ive been eyeballing the oil cooler threads for a long time. Your work here Sodo seems to be the best of the lot (i always keep an eye out for your posts).

Ive got an aircooled/DK trans on my big torquie ea288 transplant. Matt Steedle did my trans about 10k miles ago.
Any mods/thoughts on your oil cooler setup on an aircooled trans? Differences in drill locations, expected temps, oil flow considerations?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

I've never actually touched an 091, but see this thread:
091 Manual Transaxle Cooler / Filtration System 2WD TDI
Helps a lot to know someone's paying attention and using this stuff, thank you.
We spend a lot of time trying to be correct and share info as it comes up, and admit to misunderstandings or assumptions etc that didn't pan out as the (mostly anecdotal ! ) data comes in.

------

I'm gonna guess that the 091 and 094 having about same size gears, Ring & Pinion, bearings, shaft-to shaft distance.... that the temps should be the same.
I think the thermal fit/assembly of the mainshaft bearing is also 180°F so I'll guess the same ( safety? ) limit of 160°F applies. Cooling helps you stay below 160.

One thing to understand is this does not increase the capacity of the trans "much".
It mostly provides the protection of 'cool, thick, cushioning oil' when the trans would otherwise be hotter (and oil thinner).
It's like making 'regular oil' into 'specialty oil' except you know it's better, its not just basic dyed oil with the added costs/profits of a marketing campaign..

The other thing is the filtering.
Read up on over-driven industrial equipment and the first thing they do is "up the maintenance" to ensure the bearings etc are always running in clean oil.
You can't dent the bearings for tens of thousands of miles and hope they last. Dented bearings hit their fatigue limit sooner and start to shed steel.
Denting themselves further.
An over-driven bearing dents that much harder.

Dents are bad. They add up. Your bearings and gears will flake off sooner if they've been dented for tens, 20s, 80,000 miles.
Those "flat as tinfoil flakes" you see on the drain magnet are pretty benign now, but they were chunks when fresh.
They got rolled out over time. When they were fresh they dented your bearings and gears.
Those dents will become potholes sooner than the rest of the bearing race.
When they become potholes they shed more steel chunks.

Anyway, this is a push to value the filtering for your over-engined gearbox.
Keep in mind you "probably" can get pretty close to filtering by frequent oil changes or other maintenance endeavors that are much easier than building a pumping system.
Don't accept congratulations when your magnet looks just like someone elses (un-maintained) magnet.
For an over-engined gearbox ya gotta LOOK at it and get a feel for an interval to change it, while the magnet is still 'mostly clear'.
The interval will be different for every trans depending on build quality, where your gearbox is now (in it's lifespan) driving styles, engine size.

And now.... grounding? Thankfully, proper grounding is firkin' easy.

But if you like a project.....well... pumping is kinda satisfying.
Especially as you roll down the highway singing "go greased lightning...." Wink

Last spring I fell into a crowd with a Sprinter and V8 Chevy Diesel, and we were going 85 mph for several hours across Idaho & Utah.
Man was I glad I had a pumping and cooling system!
OK.....that said..... last spring I already knew better yet did it anyway.
Next time I'll be stronger to say "you guys go on ahead.....we'll get there at 65...."
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Just an update to this thread, I finally found an Oil Cooler In-Line Thermostat that can activate the oil cooler fan at temps down to 140*.

I ordered a 150* switch that will turn on my fan at 150* and turn off the fan at 135*. I plan on using the FSM 145* oil bypass manifold. So at 145* the oil will be diverted to the oil cooler loop and if or when the temps hit 150 the fan will activate. When the oil is cooled enough the FSM manifold will close the oil cooler loop and the fan will turn off at 135*


https://www.americanvolt.com/products/transmission...ch-kitSKU: AV-T08F14
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