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Walksvogen
Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2019
Posts: 5
Location: Spain
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 Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:16 pm Post subject: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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Hi all! I've just restored my 1600 engine after an accident in the rear of the car.
The distributor was severe damaged during the accident and it had to be replaced. Luckily, i had a Chinese one (omg!) and temporarily i decided to put that one to try to start the car, and the car started, but with ignition order changed.
Its known that vw's ignition order is 1432 but in my particular case, my new ignition order is: 3214, something weird that i don't reach to understand.
So, like you all could guess, the question is: why?
I can't turn the cap of the distributor 180 degrees to make the ignition order change so i don't have another possibility.
I've also tried to change the wirings position but it doesn't start the engine!
Any suggestions? maybe Aliens behind my distributor are changing the ignition order?
Thank you very much for your time!
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76941
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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Because the drive is 180* off.
1-4-3-2-1-4-3-2
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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raydog
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1163
Location: Cape Cod
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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| Exactly... you still have the same firing order except you are 180deg off on your distributor drive. Some guys don't sweat it. If it were me, I would fix the drive just so I know it is done right. |
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Walksvogen
Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2019
Posts: 5
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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Thanks for your answer guys! but I still don't understand how to solve it, do I have to turn the distributor 180º? it's weird because i remember the lung to be to the front not the back, anyway, turning the distributor would be the solution?
could it be something about the distributor axle? i think i set it in the right position but ...
Thanks so much!! very grateful!! |
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61SNRF
Samba Member
Joined: March 29, 2009
Posts: 4657
Location: Whittier 90602
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:59 am Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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By just changing your distributor it should not have changed the drive gear position.
With your engine set to #1 top dead center, this is where your rotor should be pointing...
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-Bruce
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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Are all the different distributors built the same? It would be possible to design the inside of the distributor so the rotor point in any direction.
One other thought... Perhaps the drive is in correctly but the drive dog on the bottom of the distributor is installed 180 degrees off (backwards.)
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| Wildthings wrote: |
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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Since he installed a Chinese clone his distributor is a "009".
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Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31379
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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You don't HAVE TO change the position of the distributor drive gear, you can leave it as it is, will be fine.
A perfectionist would change that position to be original and correct, which might also help SOMEONE ELSE to figure out stuff.
Maybe just better to take a paint pen and write the numbers onto your distributor cap. I did on one of mine.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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kpf
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2017
Posts: 853
Location: California, US
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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I used a Chinese svda distributor temporarily and I noticed the same thing. Just put the wires in whatever order they need to be on the cap.
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31379
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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I believe the "tang" on the bottom of the distributor can be changed 180 degrees as a home fix so wires appear in the correct location.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Walksvogen
Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2019
Posts: 5
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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So, at the end i still don't know if i have to rotate the distributor 180º or not.
How could i set the ignition order in the right position?
I'm pretty sure that the drive dog at the bottom is correctly set, so why the ignition order is wrong?
Any solution to set up at 1432?
If i change the distributor to an original bosch or similar, will i have the right order restored again?
Thanks guys! |
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mukluk
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7028
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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Either the distributor drive is installed incorrectly in the case or the drive dog on the new distributor is 180° out.
When the engine is turned to cylinder one's firing position, remove the distributor and look at the drive in the case -- it should be oriented like the picture shown below. If it is then the drive dog on the end of the new distributor is installed 180° out. If the drive's thin segment is toward the flywheel end of the engine, then the drive is installed incorrectly. Your choices in either situation are the same: 1) leave things be and run as is, 2) remove the distributor drive dog and reinstall it 180° from its current position, or 3) reindex the drive in the case.
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1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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67rustavenger
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9772
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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At the end of the day. Your engine firing order will still be 1-4-3-2.
That's the way they are designed.
Simplify your life and do the following,
With the engine OFF,
Rotate the crank pulley to TDC,
Verify this is at TDC. By removing the right side valve cover and making sure that the rockers for cylinder #1 are "wiggly" This tells you that you are indeed at TDC. If there is any tension on either the intake or the exhaust valves. You are at TDC for #3.
Rotate the crank pulley 180° and check the rockers again. To verify TDC.
Remove the distributor cap and note where the rotor is pointing when at TDC for the #1 spark plug. This is your new #1 Lug for the spark plug wire.
Finish the job by continuing the spark plug firing order 4-3-2.
Folks get confused by the little notch in the distributor rim. Ignore it!
I have many distributors. And they all seem to have a different location for the #1 spark plug lead to attach to.
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Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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| Walksvogen wrote: |
So, at the end i still don't know if i have to rotate the distributor 180º or not.
How could i set the ignition order in the right position?
I'm pretty sure that the drive dog at the bottom is correctly set, so why the ignition order is wrong?
Any solution to set up at 1432?
If i change the distributor to an original bosch or similar, will i have the right order restored again? |
For your understanding...
For the engine to properly run, the distributor must deliver a spark to the #1 spark plug when the engine (cam+crank) are in position at the end of the compression stroke for #1 cylinder. This is of key importance. Any argument of where the #1 post is on the cap is irrelevant if the distributor does not deliver a spark to the cylinder at the proper time.
The crank and cam are permanently synchronized via the gears at the rear of the engine which were meshed together when the case was assembled. The crank rotates twice (720deg) for each 360deg of cam rotation. The gears being properly indexed, the cam will be at the end of the #1 compression stroke while the crank will also be at the top of its #1 piston stroke. The TDC mark on the crank pulley will line up with the case split. This orientation is when the cylinder needs the #1 spark plug to fire.
Note: The TDC mark on the crank pulley lines up with the case split when #1 piston is at the top of its stroke. This is at both the end of the compression stroke and at the end of the exhaust stroke. So the TDC mark alone cannot tell you when the #1 cylinder is at the end of the compression stroke. You need to look at the valve movement... which is controlled by the cam shaft, not the crank.
The cam (which controls the valve movement), not the crank, determines when a cylinder has reached the end of the compression stroke. This occurs about 180 crank-degrees after the intake valve closes.
Manually rotate the crank pulley and watch the #1 intake valve open, then close. Rotate the crank another 180deg to where the TDC mark on the crank pulley is lined up with the case split. You engine (cam+crank) is now in position to fire a spark into #1 cylinder (TDC at the end of the compression stroke). Do not rotate the crank any more until you are ready to set the ignition timing/dwell. Many of the following steps assume the cam+crank are at #1 TDC at the end of the compression stroke.
It is now your job as the mechanic to make sure the distributor delivers the spark to the #1 spark plug wire while the engine is in this orientation. Different distributors place the #1 plug wire post at different locations around the cap. There is no one correct location so don't assume anything.
Remove the distributor from the case. Look down into the distributor hole and confirm if your drive gear is aligned as shown in the pic above with the offset slot towards and parallel with the crank pulley. If it is as shown, it was installed correctly. If it looks reversed or any position more than 30deg off from the pic, it was installed incorrectly. There are 12-teeth on the distributor gear which means there is one correct (factory) position and 11 incorrect positions each 30-deg apart. You can choose to fix the orientation of the distributor gear if incorrect, or leave it in the incorrect orientation. In most cases incorrect orientation will not affect the performance of the engine, only the placement of the plug wires around the cap.
To adjust the drive gear position in the case you will need to remove the fuel pump push rod which is holding the gear down. You then need to gently lift the gear up just enough to clear the crank gear it engages; rotate it until it is properly aligned and drop it back into place. Note that as you drop the gear it will rotate about 30deg. So you will need to compensate and have it about 30deg offset before you start to drop it so it is properly aligned once it is settled.
Warning, there are a couple of spacers that the drive gear rests on. If you lift the gear too much and the spacers come loose they could drop into the case, you may then need to disassemble the case to retrieve them. If you only lift the gear just enough to clear the crank gear it mates with you should not have a problem.
While you have your distributor out... looking at the above pic, rotate the bottom cog at the bottom of the distributor until it will engage the offset slot as pictured above (rear of the car is to the right of the pic). Note the orientation of the rotor and which direction it is pointing. Because the distributor drive gear as pictured is oriented for a properly assembled engine sitting at the end of the compression stroke for #1 cylinder ... by orienting the cog at the bottom of the distributor to interface with the top of the drive gear pictured, your rotor will be pointing to where the #1 plug wire must be installed. Notice you can rotate the distributor body any way you want, but because the drive cog must be oriented to mate with the drive gear when the cam+crank is at #1 TDC the rotor will only ever point to the same position. This position is the correct #1 plug wire position for this model distributor. A different model distributor may have #1 in a different location. Ideally, rotate the distributor body until the small notch on the rim approximately lines up with the rotor tip. Yes, it is the rotors orientation that determines where the notch should be positioned. The notch does not dictate where the rotor should point. The notch is only a #1 plug wire indicator (pencil mark) and not accurate enough to be used as a TDC mark. This notch could sit below any one of the posts and the engine would still run... as long a the distributor delivers a spark to the correct cylinders at the correct time.
If your rotor is not pointing where you wish it even after correcting the drive gear orientation, you have one option to change the rotor position by modifying the distributor... you can remove the cog at the bottom of the distributor (drive out the retaining pin) and reinstall the cog 180deg out. This will change the rotor position by 180deg while still engaging the gear inside the case.
Once you have the drive gear oriented as shown above (or wherever you have decided to leave it) and you install the distributor so the cog engaged the drive gear in the case... your rotor will point to where the #1 plug wire must be installed on the distributor. This rotor position around the cap is where you MUST install the #1 plug wire so the distributor delivers the spark to the #1 spark plug.
Key take away = With the engine oriented at the end of the compression stroke for #1 cylinder, and the distributor engaged with the top of the drive gear in the case... the rotor will be pointing to the location around the cap where the #1 plug wire MUST be installed.
Rotate the body of the distributor so the capacitor (and vacuum canister if you have one) is placed where you desire and one of the posts are over the rotor tip.
Remove all the plug wires from the distributor cap. Install the distributor cap onto the distributor... it only installs one way. Install the #1 plug wire into the post of the cap resting over the tip of the rotor. This is the #1 post on the cap. Mark it with a "1".
Install the remaining plug wires in the CW order 1-4-3-2 (or CCW order 1-2-3-4).
You can move the crank a little now. Adjust point gap and static time the distributor so you can get the engine started.
Start the engine and once warmed up, use a strobe timing light to set the final ignition timing as specified for your model of distributor.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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tcmia
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2019
Posts: 212
Location: Cleveland TN
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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| Great explanation. I am not sure why, but I have struggled with this. I understand now, that my drive gear must be 180 off as said above, but I can live with it for now. |
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kpf
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2017
Posts: 853
Location: California, US
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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| Walksvogen wrote: |
| If i change the distributor to an original bosch or similar, will i have the right order restored again? |
In my experience, my Bosch distributors and my Chinese distributor are different in this regard. I didn't make any change to accommodate the Chinese distributor other than plugging the wires into different places around the cap. When I went back to a Bosch distributor, the wires went back to their "normal" arrangement.
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1971 Super Beetle |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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This is stated in other threads...
With your engine oriented at #1 TDC (end of the compression stroke) a OO9 distributor will typically have the rotor pointing to the #1 plug wire post at 4-o'clock. Without rotating the engine, if you remove the OO9 and install an SVDA distributor you will find that the rotor now points to the 1-o'clock position. You will need to move the #1 plug wire over the rotor and then install the remaining wires in the proper order.
The point to remember is that since the engine was oriented such that #1 cylinder was ready to fire before the OO9 was removed (rotor pointing to #1 plug wire), when the SVDA is installed the #1 plug wire must be installed over the tip of the rotor to maintain the proper ignition timing so #1 is still ready to fire. Even if the plug wire position around the cap is different.
It is not about placing the #1 plug wire where you "think" it belongs, or where a diagram shows... you place the #1 plug wire into the post that will deliver a spark to #1 cylinder when that cylinder needs to receive a spark (end of compression stroke). This is the purpose of a distributor. Don't assume that placing a spark plug wire into a certain post causes the spark to be delivered to the correct cylinder... check that it does.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Walksvogen
Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2019
Posts: 5
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:04 am Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| Walksvogen wrote: |
So, at the end i still don't know if i have to rotate the distributor 180º or not.
How could i set the ignition order in the right position?
I'm pretty sure that the drive dog at the bottom is correctly set, so why the ignition order is wrong?
Any solution to set up at 1432?
If i change the distributor to an original bosch or similar, will i have the right order restored again? |
For your understanding...
For the engine to properly run, the distributor must deliver a spark to the #1 spark plug when the engine (cam+crank) are in position at the end of the compression stroke for #1 cylinder. This is of key importance. Any argument of where the #1 post is on the cap is irrelevant if the distributor does not deliver a spark to the cylinder at the proper time.
The crank and cam are permanently synchronized via the gears at the rear of the engine which were meshed together when the case was assembled. The crank rotates twice (720deg) for each 360deg of cam rotation. The gears being properly indexed, the cam will be at the end of the #1 compression stroke while the crank will also be at the top of its #1 piston stroke. The TDC mark on the crank pulley will line up with the case split. This orientation is when the cylinder needs the #1 spark plug to fire.
Note: The TDC mark on the crank pulley lines up with the case split when #1 piston is at the top of its stroke. This is at both the end of the compression stroke and at the end of the exhaust stroke. So the TDC mark alone cannot tell you when the #1 cylinder is at the end of the compression stroke. You need to look at the valve movement... which is controlled by the cam shaft, not the crank.
The cam (which controls the valve movement), not the crank, determines when a cylinder has reached the end of the compression stroke. This occurs about 180 crank-degrees after the intake valve closes.
Manually rotate the crank pulley and watch the #1 intake valve open, then close. Rotate the crank another 180deg to where the TDC mark on the crank pulley is lined up with the case split. You engine (cam+crank) is now in position to fire a spark into #1 cylinder (TDC at the end of the compression stroke). Do not rotate the crank any more until you are ready to set the ignition timing/dwell. Many of the following steps assume the cam+crank are at #1 TDC at the end of the compression stroke.
It is now your job as the mechanic to make sure the distributor delivers the spark to the #1 spark plug wire while the engine is in this orientation. Different distributors place the #1 plug wire post at different locations around the cap. There is no one correct location so don't assume anything.
Remove the distributor from the case. Look down into the distributor hole and confirm if your drive gear is aligned as shown in the pic above with the offset slot towards and parallel with the crank pulley. If it is as shown, it was installed correctly. If it looks reversed or any position more than 30deg off from the pic, it was installed incorrectly. There are 12-teeth on the distributor gear which means there is one correct (factory) position and 11 incorrect positions each 30-deg apart. You can choose to fix the orientation of the distributor gear if incorrect, or leave it in the incorrect orientation. In most cases incorrect orientation will not affect the performance of the engine, only the placement of the plug wires around the cap.
To adjust the drive gear position in the case you will need to remove the fuel pump push rod which is holding the gear down. You then need to gently lift the gear up just enough to clear the crank gear it engages; rotate it until it is properly aligned and drop it back into place. Note that as you drop the gear it will rotate about 30deg. So you will need to compensate and have it about 30deg offset before you start to drop it so it is properly aligned once it is settled.
Warning, there are a couple of spacers that the drive gear rests on. If you lift the gear too much and the spacers come loose they could drop into the case, you may then need to disassemble the case to retrieve them. If you only lift the gear just enough to clear the crank gear it mates with you should not have a problem.
While you have your distributor out... looking at the above pic, rotate the bottom cog at the bottom of the distributor until it will engage the offset slot as pictured above (rear of the car is to the right of the pic). Note the orientation of the rotor and which direction it is pointing. Because the distributor drive gear as pictured is oriented for a properly assembled engine sitting at the end of the compression stroke for #1 cylinder ... by orienting the cog at the bottom of the distributor to interface with the top of the drive gear pictured, your rotor will be pointing to where the #1 plug wire must be installed. Notice you can rotate the distributor body any way you want, but because the drive cog must be oriented to mate with the drive gear when the cam+crank is at #1 TDC the rotor will only ever point to the same position. This position is the correct #1 plug wire position for this model distributor. A different model distributor may have #1 in a different location. Ideally, rotate the distributor body until the small notch on the rim approximately lines up with the rotor tip. Yes, it is the rotors orientation that determines where the notch should be positioned. The notch does not dictate where the rotor should point. The notch is only a #1 plug wire indicator (pencil mark) and not accurate enough to be used as a TDC mark. This notch could sit below any one of the posts and the engine would still run... as long a the distributor delivers a spark to the correct cylinders at the correct time.
If your rotor is not pointing where you wish it even after correcting the drive gear orientation, you have one option to change the rotor position by modifying the distributor... you can remove the cog at the bottom of the distributor (drive out the retaining pin) and reinstall the cog 180deg out. This will change the rotor position by 180deg while still engaging the gear inside the case.
Once you have the drive gear oriented as shown above (or wherever you have decided to leave it) and you install the distributor so the cog engaged the drive gear in the case... your rotor will point to where the #1 plug wire must be installed on the distributor. This rotor position around the cap is where you MUST install the #1 plug wire so the distributor delivers the spark to the #1 spark plug.
Key take away = With the engine oriented at the end of the compression stroke for #1 cylinder, and the distributor engaged with the top of the drive gear in the case... the rotor will be pointing to the location around the cap where the #1 plug wire MUST be installed.
Rotate the body of the distributor so the capacitor (and vacuum canister if you have one) is placed where you desire and one of the posts are over the rotor tip.
Remove all the plug wires from the distributor cap. Install the distributor cap onto the distributor... it only installs one way. Install the #1 plug wire into the post of the cap resting over the tip of the rotor. This is the #1 post on the cap. Mark it with a "1".
Install the remaining plug wires in the CW order 1-4-3-2 (or CCW order 1-2-3-4).
You can move the crank a little now. Adjust point gap and static time the distributor so you can get the engine started.
Start the engine and once warmed up, use a strobe timing light to set the final ignition timing as specified for your model of distributor. |
 Amazing Explanation!! thank you so much, with all your info and comments I have more than enough to restore my ignition order.
I have another question but this time it's about rear axle, which it's leaking gearbox oil (I think its through the bearings) but I haven't been able to find a post about this topic. I've changed all the gaskets and other involved components and its still leaking... so, at the end I don't know how to solve it.
Is there any post about this? due to specific technical words (language barriers) It's not easy for me to find the exact topic. I would be very grateful i f you could help me again with this one. |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition order changed to 3214...but why? |
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| Walksvogen wrote: |
| I have another question but this time it's about rear axle, which it's leaking gearbox oil (I think its through the bearings) but I haven't been able to find a post about this topic. |
Better to start a new thread with correct topic.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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