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Key vs power door locks mystery -solved-
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dobryan Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:28 am    Post subject: Key vs power door locks mystery -solved- Reply with quote

An interesting thing just happened with my euro bus project.

The bus has power locks but they have never worked. I do not care and actually think that not working is a better feature since I know from past experience that power locks go crazy when the wiring starts to go bad.

Friday the front door power locks spontaneously started working together as power locks for the first time in the two years I have had the bus. I guess the internal wire break that likely existed somehow bridged the gap and a strand of wire made connection. And coincidentally the key will not turn in the slider door or hatch lock. Not a bit. It is fine in the front doors. I can open the slider and lock/unlock the door from the lock knob and it makes no difference to the key not turning. The hatch fortunately was unlocked when this happened so I can still open it but the key will not turn to lock it. There was no hint of any key issue prior to this.

I am at a loss as to how to proceed to trouble shoot. Anyone ever had this happen?
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The West Coast Westy
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794


Last edited by dobryan on Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:12 pm; edited 2 times in total
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markswagen
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:11 am    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

I've had no luck with the tail gate, getting it to work on the central locking seems , within the few hours I have chosen to throw at it, is impossible.
I feel the front 3, slider and cab are a bonus to have, owning two vans with and two without, I much prefer with, and I get complaints from my boss if and when hers fails.
If you are concerned about the wiring, pull the harnesses out of the doors and go through them, it's not difficult, it's a good time to upgrade the speaker wiring, and get the electric mirrors working.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

Mark,

I'd like to be able to use the key in the slider and the rear hatch. Right now the key will not turn at all in the lock of either.
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'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

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MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The West Coast Westy
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794
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markswagen
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:31 am    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

The actuators are energized, forcing them against the key, just like if you have the locking system open, and disconnect the battery, you'll not be able to lock the van, you'll need to overcome that, if you are planning on removing, take the actuators out.
The tail gate, if you take out the actuator, you'll need to zip tie the linkage into its working spot, if you don't it'll move, and you'll find yourself locked out.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

markswagen wrote:
The actuators are energized, forcing them against the key, just like if you have the locking system open, and disconnect the battery, you'll not be able to lock the van, you'll need to overcome that, if you are planning on removing, take the actuators out.
The tail gate, if you take out the actuator, you'll need to zip tie the linkage into its working spot, if you don't it'll move, and you'll find yourself locked out.


Great. Makes sense!
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

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MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The West Coast Westy
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794
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markswagen
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:38 am    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

If you take it all out, and I wouldn't { make it work }

But if you take it all out, bring it Chula Vista, I'll throw it away Wink for you.

Did I mention, make it all work.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:05 am    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

Could be the actuators in the front doors. There are connectors for the wiring behind the fuse box and behind the glove box, where you can check continuity with the doors. Best mod I ever did was converting to remote power locks from EBay/China for about $25.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

my suggestion is to pull the power from the actuators and never think about them again.
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:28 am    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

When you finally upgrade your van to the A1Electric kit I've been pimping for over a decade, you can bypass the flaky factory front door wiring...plus you get remote locks as an added beni. Just do it.

https://www.a1electric.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?...=W02F-712T

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
When you finally upgrade your van to the A1Electric kit I've been pimping for over a decade, you can bypass the flaky factory front door wiring...plus you get remote locks as an added beni. Just do it.

https://www.a1electric.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?...=W02F-712T



Hmm this can give me a kill switch via that remote as well. I like that idea for travel in Europe. Especially since I may be in some sketchy areas some times.... but not as bad as Oregon or Washington.... Cool Wink
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'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The West Coast Westy
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

Your actuator in the sliding door is stopped halfway through its cycle, just energize the contacts at the door with a battery and 2 wires, I think the top one is not used.

The rear hatch gets tricky bc the mechanical slider gets jammed and adds to the issue, even with a working actuator. The brass spinged pin gets worn out and the aluminum ramp it rides on get sharp on one end, gotta smoothen it with a Dremel, the steel sliding bar also worns out the sliding part, and it gets cocked too.

I rejuvenate these all the time for customers, one of my favorite systems to fix , it`s dumb easy. Some motors are not salvageable bc of water intrusion, corrosion damage, but you can install new ones. First things first, check continuity of wires from the connector behing the glovebox and your actuators. Be careful, colors are switched going to the rear , yellow becomes white and white becomes yellow bc they work in reverse motion as the front.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

Under normal conditions, turning the key in the rear hatch has NOTHING to do with the power actuator. I suppose its possible the "U" shaped sliding mechanism could interfere with the lock, but some metal part would have to be broken OR the push button is not fully extended to its resting position. Remove the lock with the three allen screws and let us know what you find.
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markswagen
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

but by the time you have gone in that far, why not just repair the original harness, and why go to chinesium parts, the issue is likely the wiring, replace and refit the stock stuff.
i guess adding a remote lock, but why not add that into the stock wiring.



Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
When you finally upgrade your van to the A1Electric kit I've been pimping for over a decade, you can bypass the flaky factory front door wiring...plus you get remote locks as an added beni. Just do it.

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jmranger
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

I'm kind of skeptical that the issue is electrical - if the actuators were binding, your battery would drain in short order. But ruling this out is easy: the power to the system has a dedicated wire going to one of the "P" terminals in the back of the fuse panel, and is protected by a dedicated 20A fuse. Disconnect one or the other, and see what changes this make.
Even easier for the slider - if you open it, the actuator doesn't have power. Is it still frozen in that case?

For the rear hatch, the actuator and the key are not moving the same part - the key rotates the piece where I hid the keycode, while the actuator moves the u-shaped piece left/right:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


At the same time, having linkage issue in both the slider and the rear hatch at the same time, and having both causing the lock to jam is really weird. Looks like you'll have to pull some panels and have a look. Don't wait for one of the doors to jam...

Edit:
ALIKA T3 wrote:
Your actuator in the sliding door is stopped halfway through its cycle, just energize the contacts at the door with a battery and 2 wires, I think the top one is not used.

The more I think about it, the more I think Alika's right. Issue is that the circuit wasn't energized long enough for all actuators to reach a stable position.


Last edited by jmranger on Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

markswagen wrote:
but by the time you have gone in that far, why not just repair the original harness, and why go to chinesium parts, the issue is likely the wiring, replace and refit the stock stuff.
i guess adding a remote lock, but why not add that into the stock wiring.



Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
When you finally upgrade your van to the A1Electric kit I've been pimping for over a decade, you can bypass the flaky factory front door wiring...plus you get remote locks as an added beni. Just do it.


That kit includes Swiss made actuators, though I can't vouch to the provenance of the remote controller or remotes themselves. The wiring in this kit is all encased in a thick sheath like an extension cord, so it's way better than the stock wiring in the jamb.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

dobryan wrote:
Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
When you finally upgrade your van to the A1Electric kit I've been pimping for over a decade, you can bypass the flaky factory front door wiring...plus you get remote locks as an added beni. Just do it.

https://www.a1electric.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?...=W02F-712T



Hmm this can give me a kill switch via that remote as well.


Now you're thinking like a killer. Good on you
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:22 am    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
dobryan wrote:
Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
When you finally upgrade your van to the A1Electric kit I've been pimping for over a decade, you can bypass the flaky factory front door wiring...plus you get remote locks as an added beni. Just do it.

https://www.a1electric.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?...=W02F-712T



Hmm this can give me a kill switch via that remote as well.


Now you're thinking like a killer. Good on you


Done. Ordered. The remote kill switch did it for me.

I have a kill switch on my other westy and the failure mode is going to be user error when I forget to use it. I really like that I will be enabling the kill switch whenever I lock the doors, no extra brain cells required. KISS....
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MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The West Coast Westy
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

I finally got someone to take my advice! [MIC DROP]
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:21 am    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
I finally got someone to take my advice! [MIC DROP]


And it was ME! Laughing
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

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MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The West Coast Westy
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Key vs power door locks mystery Reply with quote

There`s zero relation between the cylinder and the slider part unless the roll pin got out...

Here are some pics of my retrofit work.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The lock cylinder is not clocked the same way in the barrel, so I transfered the waffles. The left cylinder is the central locking model.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The little ramp got a dremel job as I mentioned earlier to make it smooth actuating.

For people retrofitting the whole assembly like me, I glued the bracket in the rear hatch rather than drilling and riveting like factory. Cleaner, less holes to rust. Cool

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The lock cylinder got a new o`ring, a Honda power steering hose o`ring from a CR-V fits perfectly! Lucky find from extra left over parts on a job I did.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I upgraded the hardware to stainless steel M8 XZN bolts from a Jetta MK4, they are free and great quality, just shorten the one that goes in the lock barrel, or an internal bridge will collapse and interfere with the functioning. BTDT... Rolling Eyes
You break it, you fix it!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I ran longer wires than the factory ones, as these will be crimped with factory connectors to connect the factory harness, but the donor wasn`t a Westfalia, so I had to modify some of the wiring sections. The red wire is actually the ground, it`s a crappy brown that looks red on pictures....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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