Vanagon Ball Joints - HOW TO add grease zerk fittings (new MOOG)

[Jake de Villiers]

Great write-up, Tom. Fully documented and with dimensions!

I just ignore the peanut gallery though it would be nice if they just STFU.
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com

[RCB]

[metropoj]

Older thread but an unanswered questions in my mind regarding the heated grease mixing point.

I hope someone finds this useful.

I have new Moog UBJ's. They don't have zerks, however Moog says this:

Upon installation, and at every oil change, it is recommended that MOOG serviceable parts be greased.

MOOG engineers suggest a premium heavy-duty lithium or synthetic grease.
_________________
John.
86 TiiCo powered Westy.

[Vanagon Nut]

[jlrftype7]

[Ronzo_volvo_guy]

Hello again Samba Forum;

This is my second visit to this forum, from the vintage Volvo world (my first was for an electrical issue a while back)...I am currently following a thread on the Volvoniacs forum, where an owner is having difficulty getting grease into a zerk fitting (I suppose this could be a result of something as easy as a rusted stuck zerk fitting**, but would entertain suggestions/solutions) ...I suggested to him using hydraulic greasegun (I expect this applies a lot more force to overcome a stuck zerkball opposed to a hand operated one), but I thought I'd do some searching around...and I came upon this thread documenting upgrading maintenance-free (I prefer to call them unmaintainable!) ball-joints with zerk fittings...something I advocate and highly recommend for vintage Volvo suspension components also...

First of all, thanks to sodo for the documentation! I totally agree adding zerks is the way to go, but (minor point) but I also would prefer the threaded ones...pressed-in ones just seem too imprecise, and I prefer the positive nature of a thread vs displacing metal and simply wanging them into (admittedly a precision) hole...regarding the mixing of greases, I agree with him that on this application, filled with ANY lube in there, including a mix of possibly incompatible greases is still worlds better than not being able to service them at all in time...and yes, for lubing requirements of large, low speed bearing areas I also agree with sodo, even soap would probably work better than dry...like it does on my dresser drawers and storm windows!

Regarding rubber boots...I think with the huge hydraulic advantage the grease under there has (in service, or especially when being pushed in there from an applicator tool), if it has no place else to go, it will make its way past the boot ...there's no need to give it an exit path past a wire (again, a minor point, or maybe I missed why you thought you needed that)...poor quality/staying power of rubber boots on replacement suspension components...we are well aware of this issue also...all I can recommend is to periodically treat the exterior surfaces with a silicon spray or even silicon grease, to at least prolong the dry rot and minimize exposure to oxygen/ozone (I realize this will likely get flushed away so won't last long, but it cant hurt), but if you have silicon replacement rubber boots available, I expect they would be worth trying...

What is FLAPS?...an acronym for (F*****g) Local Auto Parts Store? Yeah, neon suspension lighting interspersed with china's finest (s**t products) which might not survive the the operation of installing them due to them having been manufactured with absolutely the cheapest materials possible don't impress me much either...

I welcome thoughts and comment from the VW world...a little cross-pollination is a good thing, I think!

Greets from the vintage Volvo World, and Connecticut!

Ron

My site: sw-em.com

** Edit: I just made him aware of the "Grease Joint Rejuvinator" tool from Snap-On. (wow...what a name...I suppose it accurately describes its function, but maybe the marketing department guys worked overtime on that one...). See: https://store.snapon.com/Grease-Fitting-Cleaner-Rejuvenator-Grease-Fitting-P642195.aspx

[Sodo]

Studied up on grease incompatibility, and it's often difficult to find a way to know if the greases you are mixing are compatible.
Garden-variety wheel bearing greases are "likely compatible".
Be careful mixing waterproof grease with 'non', or lithium based with 'non-lithium'.
Especially difficult if you don't know what kind of grease you have, like in a balljoint.

Someone with grease expertise can search better.
And some people's brains are designed for internet searching.
I'm on a time-limit this morning.

Searching "grease compatibiity" I cannot find anything that tells you what recognizable brand-types are compatible.
Or how to apply the information to brands.
There are loads of 'charts' that all require you to know what the greases are made of.
How will you know?
And everywhere its stated that the various charts have contradictions between them.

The info at 'etrailer' is pretty good, gets more down to the basics, as one might expect.
etrailer: Overview of lubricating greases
But they don't get into 'ball-joint greases' of course.

Here is a testing result that was shown on MachineryLubrication.
The mixture has substantially lower performance than the 'average expected'.
Obviously this pair was chosen specifically to illustrate this point.

Well this begs the question....why does the Polyrex EM grease even exist? The answer is ----- it's for 'different uses'.
It's for Electric Motor bearings. Continuous running, steady temperature, steady known speed.
Where the machine bearing load is designed to be lower than the yield stress of a special grease chosen for other benefits such as stability and flow at some steady RPM.
Engineering works!

The ChevronSRI2 is a high RPM bearing grease.

Let's say the balljoint was mounted vertically, like a bucket.
A grease that could drip out would stay there, perhaps forever.
It seems like the highest-zoot bearing grease could work in the bucket configuration.

But what about the ball-joint with the boot pointed downward? Some greases will slowly run out, thus depleting over time.
How long? 1 year or 5 years?
So for this "one-time-lube" you would want a soapy grease that doesn't drip downhill.
And the balljoint manufacturing spec may require installation in either bucket or open-downward,
so it must have the grease that doesn't run out.

From what I've found, the soap-like greases are NOT compatible with the wheel-bearing type greases.
And drilling into ball-joints I've found soap-like greases inside.
Which may have grease of lesser lubricity, but can remain longer in a non-zerk balljoint.

I found one article in MachineryLubrication where they addressed "what to do if the wrong grease is introduced".
They said that in some cases you'd have to disassemble and clean it.
And in other cases you would run it, mix, and then try to push out the mixed grease as soon as you can,
exchanging it with the 'new'.

Anyway, for balljoints, this gets kind of confusing to try to decide what to do.
Especially because there won't be enough mixing to expel the 'mix'.
It does seem like once you start greasing, you might have to keep greasing.
For example don't let them 'drip-dry'.
And what if it's grease-tight? ----Will you then over-inflate the boot?
You have to let the old grease out somehow.
There can be ways to do this, but will you DO it?

The whole thing is fraught with danger, actually, and lends toward the 'dont fook with it' scenario that several members above have stated.
Mostly because you probably can't find out what grease is in there, and if you did,
it's very unlikely to find a tube of the proper stuff at your FLAPS.


If we can find out what kind of grease is commonly used in ball-joints and find a source for it, etc etc
this 'mod' could gain back some validity, but for now I'm not real confident.

It kinda goes without saying that you want to put wheel bearing grease in wheel bearings, and CV-joint grease in CV joints.
But it kinda looks like wheel bearing grease in my new ball-joints was not the best move, but not terrible.
More to the point not a hand's down 'win'.

This info I found on MOOG helps some too.
I have MOOG balljoints, and will check if my grease is compatible.
This is one good thing, if you buy MOOG, you will know.

MOOG: How to Grease Ball Joints with or without a Zerk Fitting
and
MOOG: Best Grease for Ball Joints

---------------- oooops have to stop now ----------

My daughter's car just stalled in traffic and I have to leave now.
Such is the nature of 'free info'.
No peer review.
Gotta post it or lose it ( I think it's OK )
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[VeeDubDaySpa]

Sodo,
Just a thought- Could you drill your 3/32 hole (that you plug with silicone) as an exit for grease to work with your zerks?
Kevin
_________________
North American Hightop Installer/Distributor
Current stock (5)
Hot Water Systems
_______________________________________
90 Syncro NAHT Vanagon RHINO
86 "Syncro" Van DIAMOND
87 Syncro Hightop WestyCamper ROCKY (for sale soon)
79 bay window OLIVER

[Sodo]

Normally you want “cross-flow” to the exit, so new grease can displace old grease.
For a balljoint this (drilled) exit would be right next to the inlet zerk.
Thus fresh grease would make a quick exit, barely disturbing the old grease you wanna push out.

Need grease to come in at the zerk and exit from the boot.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[VeeDubDaySpa]

I was thinking more for relieving the pressure on the boots but not flushing it out. I suppose if you knew what grease to use a nice fill up off the get go would go a long way. Till the boots degrade and we start all over again...

I’m about to reassemble all my bits and notice T3 doesnt sell the MOOG upper and lower joints currently- only lemförder. Not sure if it’s a stock issue or what but I’m waiting to find out before I order.

I like where you’re going with all this and appreciate your attention to detail.
_________________
North American Hightop Installer/Distributor
Current stock (5)
Hot Water Systems
_______________________________________
90 Syncro NAHT Vanagon RHINO
86 "Syncro" Van DIAMOND
87 Syncro Hightop WestyCamper ROCKY (for sale soon)
79 bay window OLIVER

[Wellington]

Moog lower ball joints are now crap too, they are out sourcing them.
I called Moog after receiving new lower ball joints and seeing a simple stamped cover like all other garbage ball joints. Lemforder is the only quality lower ball joint available for us now. T3 no longer carries Moog for this very reason.

[DeathRay64]

You vanagon guy's got it goin' on over here.

Nice thread... I'm about to do this to the tie rods on my bug to restore my old rod ends.

I just decided I am going try it.

I can buy new boots and my rod ends have no play even though they were mostly without grease.

Thanks for the great cross-cultural thread.