exhaust info

[johnnyvw164]

I haven't stumbled across anything on this subject, so my apologies if it's been discussed already.
I was wondering if anyone had good hard data on at what point it pays to change the exhaust system? As an example, a fairly stock 1600 with single port heads, maybe an upgrade to dual carbs. Does it pay to go to a header system? What gains would you achieve?
So many other topics are discussed ad nauseam, I'm kind of surprised I haven't come across this info.
Also, what about headers vs the "Euro" style exhausts that have the two tips that exit through the rear skirt? Horsepower gains?

[Chickensoup]

How to hot rod your acvw engine had a section on this. Do you have the book? I can pull numbers if you would like.
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

[vwracerdave]

A completely stock 1600 will benefit 3-4 HP from a 4 into 1 merged header. It can also increase 2-3 more MPG.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63

Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos

[Chickensoup]

From the Fisher book.

How accurate is it? Idk...
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

[johnnyvw164]

I had that book maybe 40 years ago...probably sold it when I sold off all my air cooled stuff mid-80's. I have no doubt those numbers are at least somewhat accurate,at least as it relates to the gains from different mods.

For comparison's sake, I would really like see a test where the intake was upgraded first, then the exhaust changed. Pretty much the reverse of what they did.

[Chickensoup]

Well, you could always do just that on your own car it would be a good excuse to get her tuned in at the dyno.
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

[johnnyvw164]

Yeah, maybe the SOP dyno...LOL

[Chickensoup]

The butt dyno work well also...
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

[nextgen]

Also keep in mind a stock bug was built with specific specification to prolong the engines life, give best fuel economy and reliability.

Any changes create a chain reaction of parts which will move away from the mfgs. specs.

Simple example, when EMPI sold quality parts, I bought my first bug in 1969.

I wanted the car to have a bit more power and have the awesome Extractor Sound.

I bought the extractor and with it came a larger Main Jet . I asked what the heck to I have to use that for and they said the extractor will lean out your fuel mixture and without it you may burn out a valve.

Ok then came the 009 distributor and Chrome Air Cleaner, ha.
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[johnnyvw164]

Yup, absolutely. Any one change affects how the other systems have to work.

What it boils down to is I have a 69 Beetle with the original 1500 engine. At some point the #3/4 cylinder head was replaced (we all know the likely reason for that...). Not sure what else may have been done at that time. The engine runs fairly strong, considering it's been napping the past 11 years (at least). Provided the case isn't beat to hell, what I would like to do is freshen it up, put in 87 mm pistons and cylinders, have the heads rebuilt, add either a good progressive carb and manifold or a set of dual single barrels. I don't intend to take the revs higher than what the original crank is capable of. Would just like a bit more power and responsiveness within the normal rev range. Having had header systems in the past, I would like to stay with something closer to a stock exhaust. (I do have a more highly modified engine that's been sitting in my garage for 25 years, but that's a different story...)

[johnnyvw164]

Does anyone have experience with the systems made by Vintage Speed? They seem to be about what I'm looking for. I don't mind the price too much since they'll probably outlast me

[Chickensoup]

[vwracerdave]

Just because something looks really cool does not mean it functions correctly. Don't be fooled by looks. Some of those $700- $800 exhaust systems do not perform as any better then a plain jane 150 header.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63

Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos

[Rome]

Several years ago the British VW magazine VolksWorld had an article where they tested numerous exhaust systems on a mostly stock Beetle engine. They also rated them as to the cost vs power increase. I'm fairly certain the article has been shown in previous Samba posts as reference.

Found it: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1859041.jpg

[johnnyvw164]

Thanks guys, that's pretty much what I was looking for. The smaller HP gains don't necessarily put me off, but the fitting issues some people have had certainly do. I was honestly surprised by the difference in gains from a single quiet muffler to either a dual muffler or the glass pack. And I had considered that "all in one"...not now!!
Again, many thanks...great community here. SO much easier to get good information compared to the 40 years ago!LOL

[Lingwendil]

If it isn't too loud for you, I've always thought that a basic, quality header and a glasspack is hard to beat. They perform well, look the part, and are an affordable solution. Testing usually shows them to be a very good option for performance.

That, or the vintage speed sport exhaust. It's not a header and doesn't perform as well, but it fits and exits out of the stock locations. Expensive for what they are though, and older ones had issues with welds failing.
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[johnnyvw164]

In 1971, when I took my driver's test, I had a 64 Beetle with a glass pack. 15 seconds into the test, the examiner had me pull over to the inspection station at the facility because he thought there wasn't a muffler on the car. As you might imagine, it had me pretty rattled for the rest of the test LOL But I passed...

For the engine I mentioned, a closer to stock look and fit has a lot of attraction, which is why I started this thread. For the other motor I have, definitely will go with a header system, and from the results of that one article, will go with dual mufflers.