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blyhigh
Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2006
Posts: 121
Location: The Beaver State of Mind
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 Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. I've spoken to the parts place and they've agreed to replace the axle. I will order it today and hope it gets here by Monday because it could very well take me several days to reinstall and I'm supposed to be leaving next Friday.
That said, what's the consensus on axle nuts? Do I reuse my old one? Van Cafe has 'original front axle nuts' for Syncros. But is that any different than what comes with the new axle assembly? What about the GW Nylock nut? Any endorsements there?
All right, going out now to jack up the ol' Westy. |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| 258ft*lbs is only 3% over 250ft*lbs, so 250ft*lbs is plenty close enough. If you must have 258ft*lbs then just turn the wrench a tiny bit more once you reach 250 and be done with it. We aren't building a rocket to go to the moon here. |
3% accuracy is not the focus.
The focus it that axle threads were stripped.
This is not common (I think) and many of us Syncro nuts are curious whether it was
replacement part quality,
technical error,
or torque wrench error?
Its more about confirming that (appx !) 258 ft-lbs was used before.
And that (appx but "genuine") 258 ft-lbs is attained, and maintained for "the trip".
AND to understand that a torque wrench (a specialized tool) is barely necessary for a 'vertical' configuration nut, near the ground, that you can put "normal" human body weight on.
I bet it would/should take something 300ft-lbs to strip.
It's a really good thing to replace it, you will travel much more relaxed.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17114
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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| blyhigh wrote: |
Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. I've spoken to the parts place and they've agreed to replace the axle. I will order it today and hope it gets here by Monday because it could very well take me several days to reinstall and I'm supposed to be leaving next Friday.
That said, what's the consensus on axle nuts? Do I reuse my old one? Van Cafe has 'original front axle nuts' for Syncros. But is that any different than what comes with the new axle assembly? What about the GW Nylock nut? Any endorsements there?
All right, going out now to jack up the ol' Westy. |
I'd have no issue with using the original nuts with some blue loctite if you are worried about it coming loose.
So, to clarify, this is a complete axle assembly that you installed, not just an outer joint you installed on your original CV shaft?
At one time I ordered 2 NOS 944 complete CV shafts from Pelican parts. What showed up were some lame rebuilt shafts of unknown quality in Lobro boxes. I sent them back.
If you got a complete axle, I've seen my share of replacement axles not be worth it even with life time warranty. I always reuse my original shafts with replacement joints. I get it cleaner and quicker, but just not ideal in my experience.
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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| blyhigh wrote: |
Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. I've spoken to the parts place and they've agreed to replace the axle. I will order it today and hope it gets here by Monday because it could very well take me several days to reinstall and I'm supposed to be leaving next Friday.
That said, what's the consensus on axle nuts? Do I reuse my old one? Van Cafe has 'original front axle nuts' for Syncros. But is that any different than what comes with the new axle assembly? What about the GW Nylock nut? Any endorsements there?
All right, going out now to jack up the ol' Westy. |
Buy the nut and find out, can't cost all that much I wouldn't think. There is very likely nothing wrong with using the original nut if you clean the threads of the shaft and nut well with brake cleaner and use high strength Loctite to keep it from backing off readily, I would not question reusing the original nut in this case if there was nothing visually wrong with it. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| 258ft*lbs is only 3% over 250ft*lbs, so 250ft*lbs is plenty close enough. If you must have 258ft*lbs then just turn the wrench a tiny bit more once you reach 250 and be done with it. We aren't building a rocket to go to the moon here. |
3% accuracy is not the focus.
The focus it that axle threads were stripped.
This is not common (I think) and many of us Syncro nuts are curious whether it was
replacement part quality,
technical error,
or torque wrench error?
Its more about confirming that (appx !) 258 ft-lbs was used before.
And that (appx but "genuine") 258 ft-lbs is attained, and maintained for "the trip".
AND to understand that a torque wrench (a specialized tool) is barely necessary for a 'vertical' configuration nut, near the ground, that you can put "normal" human body weight on.
I bet it would/should take something 300ft-lbs to strip.
It's a really good thing to replace it, you will travel much more relaxed. |
If you have some accurate weights you could make a beam scale to get your torque pretty exact, but having someone with a 4" wide foot stand on a wrench you would be lucky to get you within +/-10%. Standing on a wrench when doing the rear axle nut is fine as the specified torque is a minimum value and you are going to likely have to increase the torque significant to get the cotter pin in anyway. In this case if the concern was stripping the threads on shaft that had already shown itself to be pretty soft, I would leaving it at 250ft*lbs and not go with by guess and by golly method you suggest. |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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In my simple mind an un-calibrated torque wrench at the end of its range has more guess & golly than the centroid of a 4 inch wide footprint.
I’d trust my calculations and measurements more than someone elses.
The repeatability of a torque wrench is preferable for multple bolts in a pattern too.
I do agree that 250 is as good as 258. (Theres no cotter key)
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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blyhigh
Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2006
Posts: 121
Location: The Beaver State of Mind
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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I thought of torque wrench error. I weigh 195 and was pulling on it pretty hard set at 250 lbs. Never heard the CLICK and kept cranking. It's never been set for max torque before so maybe the wrench failed rather than the axle.
I'll go look at the box the axle came in.
Last edited by blyhigh on Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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blyhigh
Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2006
Posts: 121
Location: The Beaver State of Mind
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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I had significant trouble with a Syncro front axle 'loosening' and destroying a hub (as linked in an earlier post).
Upon re-assembly I decided that I would drive it a bit and check torque a 2nd time.
For that reason I did not want Loctite® preventing my torque checkup.
The nut turned a little at the 2nd check. 
At the 3rd check the nut did not turn.
I checked again today (160 lbs at 20 inches = 266 ft-lbs) and the nut did not turn at all.
I think Loctite® could resist your ability to re-check torque, where the pre-load on the bearing races has reduced, but the torque method is unable to inform you of the reduction.
VW does not recommend thread locker.
It's just not the type of joint that benefits from thread locker.
Just my humble opinion. 
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17114
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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They do recommend a thread type locker on the joint splines. D6 I believe it’s called. I’ve never used it on reassembly on any VW or Audi outer steering cVs. It doesn’t seem to affect them, and field servicing one that happens to be “glued” in as a pain
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IdahoDoug
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Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10248
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:33 pm Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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I think that D6 is some kind of glue designed to reduce the spline creaking owners sometimes hear moving slowly in a quiet garage. I've ignored the product on my Quattro, and my Syncro and never heard a peep with properly torqued axles. Agree would not have to try getting one apart with D6.
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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Abscate
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Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22641
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:00 am Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
| They do recommend a thread type locker on the joint splines. D6 I believe it’s called. I’ve never used it on reassembly on any VW or Audi outer steering cVs. It doesn’t seem to affect them, and field servicing one that happens to be “glued” in as a pain |
Is this to defeat so called “axle ping” ?
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:41 am Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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| Sodo wrote: |
I had significant trouble with a Syncro front axle 'loosening' and destroying a hub (as linked in an earlier post).
Upon re-assembly I decided that I would drive it a bit and check torque a 2nd time.
For that reason I did not want Loctite® preventing my torque checkup.
The nut turned a little at the 2nd check.
At the 3rd check the nut did not turn.
I checked again today (160 lbs at 20 inches = 266 ft-lbs) and the nut did not turn at all.
I think Loctite® could resist your ability to re-check torque, where the pre-load on the bearing races has reduced, but the torque method is unable to inform you of the reduction.
VW does not recommend thread locker.
It's just not the type of joint that benefits from thread locker.
Just my humble opinion. |
Since the originals were a stover style lock nut, I would say it is a perfect place to use Loctite if you are reusing the nuts. If you feel the need to retorque, remove the nut and reapply the Loctite each time you retorque. As others mentioned there was some kind of Loctite like filler on the splines as well. IIRC, I used a medium strength Loctite on the splines when I redid my boots. Can't say how it worked as I have never had the axle off again. |
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yellowjacket
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Joined: January 14, 2007
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Location: NCWA
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blyhigh
Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2006
Posts: 121
Location: The Beaver State of Mind
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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Here's the difference between the nut that came with the GKN/Loebro axle assembly v. the Van Cafe 'Genuine Syncro front axle nut.'
Last edited by blyhigh on Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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?Waldo?
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Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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| blyhigh wrote: |
Here's the difference between the nut that came with the GKN/Loebro axle assembly v. the Van Cafe 'Genuine Syncro front axle nut.'
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Do you have BBCode disabled? (check box at bottom of post window) It seems like the img tags are correct.
Anyway, that difference between the two nuts is quite significant. There are several additional threads of engagement. |
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blyhigh
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Joined: April 13, 2006
Posts: 121
Location: The Beaver State of Mind
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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| Thanks, Waldo. Did have the Disable BBCode checked. |
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markswagen
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Joined: January 28, 2018
Posts: 1028
Location: san diego
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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unfortunately with some of the questionable materials out there, it's easy to strip such a nut, i recently fitted a set of GKN outer CV joint boots to a syncro, the kit came with new nuts, and managed to strip one of the nuts, i have extra spare ones with me, for just in case, but it's easily done, just because they are new, and from a reputable manufacturer, doesn't necessarily guarantee premium quality.
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blyhigh
Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2006
Posts: 121
Location: The Beaver State of Mind
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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| All back together. Torqued nut one step at a time, starting at 100 ft lbs and working my way up letting the nut cool after each step. In case you haven't done it, torquing something to 258 ft lbs takes quite a bit of effort. Unnerving because I didn't want to strip it again. But mission accomplished. Thanks all for your input. |
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kguarnotta
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Joined: April 01, 2004
Posts: 1160
Location: Woodstock, NH
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Stripped Syncro front axle nut |
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Congrats, glad to hear you got it done...
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-Kevin
Lincoln, MA
'86 Triple Knob Syncro w/EJ22
'78 Westy
'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper |
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