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busmania
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2006
Posts: 1934
Location: Here
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 Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:13 am Post subject: Occasional second gear grind |
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Is my transmission on its way out or is this an adjustment issue?
Occasionally when I downshift into second it grinds pretty bad and I have to back off and try putting it into second again and then it goes in just fine. Thoughts?
71 transporter, clutch has maybe 1500 miles on it. |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:43 am Post subject: Re: Occasional second gear grind |
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See “reverse lockout plate” aka the ‘stop plate’ for some silly reason.
| airschooled wrote: |
descriptions of each issue:
Missing or worn bushings: Each bus needs one plastic shift bushing in the front, and two in the central shift tube. (Some have three.) It might be possible to shift without the front bushings, but shifting will be loud and inconsistent. Check this first.
Aftermarket parts not compatible with originals: Some aftermarket shifters do not play nice with other stock parts due to height differences, angle issues, and lack of tape measures at the shift rod factory. Some shifters need stock reverse lockout plates, and some do not.
Clutch release issue: Always try all shifter tests with the engine running and with the engine shut off. If your clutch pedal doesn't fully release the clutch disc, the car will shift fine with the engine off but not with the engine running.
Cabin floor damaged: Over-tightening of the shifter housing bolts and front-end collisions can warp the cabin floor into shift issues. This won't cause any issue by itself, but can make existing issues worse.
Loose or missing grub screws: Unless your bus is held together entirely by rust, a missing grub screw will not allow the shifter to communicate with the transaxle shift mechanism. This can show up as hard 2-3/3-2 shifting, and general inconsistency in shifter action.
No grease on bushings: This usually results in loud and firm but still predictable shifting. Metal things need grease to move, like, duh? Rear bushings can squeak and sound like Bowser.
Shift rod(s) bent: So you just removed your front beam but it's hanging up on something… Oops… Front/back action may be unusable now, and side to side shifter action may be odd too.
Anti-rotation pin missing: This causes the shifter to rotate freely in its housing, but it may theoretically possible to shift, though I doubt it.
Grub screw landing(s) dirty: The shifter grub screws have tapered heads and required a matching taper to grab when tightened. If you get dirt in the landing, or use the wrong bolt, the proper grub screw can not fully tighten. This results in clumsy shifting at best, and a general distaste for going into any gears.
Reverse lockout plate missing or installed wrong: The lockout tabs go up, and the Ramp goes on the Right. See how fun letters are? The "collar" on the shifter handle has to be at the exact height of the lockout plate when the plate is installed into the housing when held upside in your hands. Sometimes the lockout plate will be at the wrong level when aftermarket shifters or plates are mixed with originals.
Nosecone bracket broken/studs stripped: All shifter movement is braced by a thin metal bracket in the transaxle nosecone. Gentle shifting prevents this, but sometimes the bracket or studs can't handle any more force and break. Repair requires removing the engine and transaxle. Remove the 091 springs and circlips while you're in there.
Coupler cage loose: The metal rear shift coupler cage should be a tight fit around the rubber bushings. Slop here results in sloppy shifter feel.
Free space: we've all used this one.
Broken/worn early guide pin or late bushing housing: The front shift bushings on early bays need a straight pin in the front bushing. Bent pins can allow the shifter to pop out of the pipe bowl, and missing pins result in no shifting at all. Late bays have a round hold in a thin sheet of metal that holds the bushing. If the hole is wallowed out enough from neglect, a new bushing will not stay installed. Late model bug bushings seem to work really well in late bays where the quality of available bushings is suspect.
Motor mounts loose/worn/missing: The transaxle has to remain stationary while shifting, like duh?
Bad pilot bearing: The pilot bearing allows the clutch to spin independently from the engine. A bad bearing usually acts fine when the engine is cold and mimics a sticking clutch disc once the engine warms up. Sometimes they make noise. Always they require engine removal to repair.
Reverse lockout plate broken: Reverse lockout plates crack and result in a wandering shifter feel. Originals can be welded, since the cost will out-perform an aftermarket plate. Make sure it matches the shifter housing. ("Wings and cutouts" or "No wings or cutouts.")
Reverse lockout plate misadjusted: Often resulting in a "chirp" of gear grinding when downshifting to second gear, the plate is designed to guide you into second and prevent reverse engagement without a full "push down" of the shifter. The "chirp" is your reverse gear grinding into silver slurry.
EMPI shifter: This was almost a free space, but if you're going to spring-load a shifter, make it the 1-2 gate instead of the 3-4 gate. Those who drive on any public roads need the 3-2 downshift guided if anything at all. Remove the coil spring in the base of your EMPI shifter to retain its excellent Nylon pivot bushings while making it easier to select gears. Adjust by selecting second gear and shoving the whole shifter and housing to the left before finally tightening the shifter bolts.
Coupler collar spinning: Some aftermarket shift couplers aren't fully coupled internally. (Interestingly, NOS VW couplers are crimped 360°, where even the good aftermarket couplers are only crimped once for a few degrees somewhere along the edge.)
Bent shift coupler: Someone removed your engine/transaxle without proper supports and coupler disconnects, so you get to buy a new coupler. And instal it. And adjust the reverse lockout plate. And enjoy paying attention.
Nose cone ball worn/missing: There is a metal ball in the nosecone that is responsible for taking your PERFECT H-pattern (right??) shifting and translate those motions into gear engagements. VW went plastic (cheap!) in 1976 and the metal balls will wear out too if you neglect oil changes and/or shift like a gorilla. Repair requires removal of engine and transmission. Please ensure your old ball is fully removed first, RIGHT KENTps? 
Coupler cage bolts missing: The seemingly-cheap-but-actually-brilliant method of using a lag bolt and sleeve to clamp the rubber bushings into the rear shift coupler can work loose. I make sure to check the tightness on these after the first few hundred miles of shifting. Some use blue thread locker.
Shifter housing bolts loose: This one should be self-explanatory, but those buses are still out there! Mine was one.
Slot/pin interface in pipe bowl worn: The fit of the shift ball pin into the shift rod pipe bowl determines lateral slop in the shifter. New parts are not available, but rotating the pin often results in the "fresh" metal taking up some slack until you find someone to weld the bowl and grind a fresh slot into it.
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I wish everyone many many miles of fantastic shifting,
Robbie |
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Occasional second gear grind |
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might be the synchros are worn a little. You can try changing the gear oil to GL4 and also shift a little slower.
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kinggeorge13
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Joined: May 24, 2013
Posts: 95
Location: Fort Langley, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Occasional second gear grind |
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After trying a few different transmission fluids, this is the only one I use now. I can personally attest to at least one of my late bay buses that used to have minor shifting problems (particularly difficulty and minor grinding into reverse sometimes) that replacing old transmission oil with Lucas gear oil made the problem go away.
Sometimes just getting fresh transmission fluid and replacing the old, worn, burned oil (and who knows how old some of it is that's in some buses other than the magnet on the drain plug looking like an oversized crazed metal porcupine) will help struggling syncros. It's not going to fix broken gears or syncros that are completely worn out but it may help, especially if the lube in there is wearing out and not doing it's job properly anymore. Like I said, it did for one of my buses, no doubt about it. It's always worth a shot.
But it's not magical. I've also had at least one other transmission that absolutely would never go into third gear without grinding and simply would not downshift from 4th to 3rd and clearly that particular syncro was shot and changing the transmission fluid is NOT going to fix that.
This is what I use. Of course there are other products. This is just my choice.
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1967 Fastback, Green Hornet w/dual Solex |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Occasional second gear grind |
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If you used a standard old stinky GL-5 this would be expected. Haven't had much luck swapping to other oils once a stinky GL-5 has been in the box. I now have Castro 5w50 in my Bay's transmission because the stinky GL-5 oil required by the rebuilder messed up the synchros, had tried Swepco 201 and another expensive oil after the rebuilder's required oil and neither made any difference.
Do not use the thinner Redline oils as even Redline says to avoid them. |
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sodbuster
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Joined: August 08, 2004
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Location: wherever my baywindow takes me.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Occasional second gear grind |
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Sta-Lube 85-90 GL-4 gear oil. Part number SL24239. Available from NAPA auto parts.
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Occasional second gear grind |
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| sodbuster wrote: |
Sta-Lube 85-90 GL-4 gear oil. Part number SL24239. Available from NAPA auto parts.
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This ^^^
GL5, especially with limited slip additives is too slippery, especially if you have moly-coated synchros.
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busmania
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2006
Posts: 1934
Location: Here
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Occasional second gear grind |
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| Interesting. I rebuilt most of the bus except the tranny 1500 miles ago. I did replace with normal 80/90 weight. I have to admit I had read about the gl4 being better on this forum but didn’t really think much of it. I won’t ignore y’all again and I’ll switch to gl4. Probably the Napa one above if I can find it Without ordering. Thanks y’all. That’s the last time I ignore samba advice I guess! |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Occasional second gear grind |
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Note what I said above:
"Haven't had much luck swapping to other oils once a stinky GL-5 has been in the box."
The stinky old fashion GL-5 seems to damage the coating on the synchronizers in very short order and the coating will not become undamaged by switching to another oil. Certainly give GL-4 oil a try though.
It would be nice if you would post what oil you presently have in your gear box. |
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busmania
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2006
Posts: 1934
Location: Here
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Occasional second gear grind |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
Note what I said above:
"Haven't had much luck swapping to other oils once a stinky GL-5 has been in the box."
The stinky old fashion GL-5 seems to damage the coating on the synchronizers in very short order and the coating will not become undamaged by switching to another oil. Certainly give GL-4 oil a try though.
It would be nice if you would post what oil you presently have in your gear box. |
I don’t know. Maybe valvolene 80/90? I’m not sure what I bought but maybe I still Have it laying around. Will look tomorrow. |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: Occasional second gear grind |
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OMG did we all forget how to diagnose during quarantine???
It’s a 13mm socket, a flathead screwdriver, and thirty seconds to adjust the shifter.
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Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:23 pm Post subject: Re: Occasional second gear grind |
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| airschooled wrote: |
OMG did we all forget how to diagnose during quarantine???
It’s a 13mm socket, a flathead screwdriver, and thirty seconds to adjust the shifter. |
OMG if it is grinding in 2nd and it is not reverse, it isn't the gate. The selector shafts pick the gear.
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