Class 11 Roll Cage Questions

[Double-Double]

PAGING DUSTYMOJAVE and other fine off-road folks!!!! Is something like this cage a good start? Can it be added to if you wanted to go a different route like long travel or something in the future? I am looking to figure out a way to have a cage at the moment that is expandable and I'd like to retain my rear seat if I can, albeit probably a Corbeau baja bench for my daughter. Do you weld the cage or bolt it down and then the body goes over the top and is bolted to the pan? My ultimate desire is to make a street legal 05/1600 style and most likely mount the fuel tank under the fiberglass 1 peice front end so I can hopefully make a single seat in the rear for my daughter. This would hold me over until I can build something else in the future.

https://www.pacificcustoms.com/AC800230.html

Looking at asking the wife for this as a Christmas present.

From a previous thread that mentioned this kit:



Both are made of the same basic material. 1.5" x .095 wall (note that wall thickness in common CREW tubing has a maximum-minimum range of + or - .005". That is why, although the basic spec is .095", it is often referred to as ".090"".

The EMPI kit bolts together into the car, with no welding required to do a basic installation. That's a positive point for one like yourself who has nobody to fabricate and weld for him.

The "Class 11" cage kit is weld together. Not good for one who cannot weld it. But it includes a cross member at the bottom rear of the cage and a diagonal brace to resist lateral failure.

The Class 11 cage kit connects to and reinforces the rear torsion housing.

It includes braces to the rear motor mount to resist breakage of the yokes.


A diagonal brace can be added to the EMPI.

Shoulder belt bars can be added (in my opinion - SHOULD BE added) to both cages.

The Class 11 can be made into a bolt-together, but that still requires some welding and fabricating to do that.

Shock mounts to the roll cage can be added to both kits.

Both kits can be extended to the front beam.

Both should also get a dash bar added.

I have seen a great many offroad race cars in class 5-1600 and Class 11 with the Chenowth design roll cage kit. Most have some or a lot of additional cage work fabrication done for shock mounts, front beam support, bottom rail from beam to rear torsion housing, etc. I've also seen a small handful of race cars in those classes with cages that started out as EMPI kits. As a Tech Inspector, I've approved both.

The SCORE rules since 2006 have banned use of Cold Rolled Electro Weld (CREW) tube as used for the kits discussed here for roll cages. I have heard no sound explanation of then SCORE Tech Chief Bill Savage's change to that rule as no CREW cage that was built to the rules has ever in my 43 years of offroad racing knowledge failed. I have seen a great number of 4130 cages that have cracked without even being crashed. I've seen several 4130 cages fail in crashes, while luckily, and sometimes amazingly, nobody got hurt as a result in those crashes. I've seen mild steel cages bent, but never failed. Personally if I wore the shoes of a close friend of mine, Art Savedra, current SCORE Chief of Tech, I would re-instate CREW as an acceptable roll cage material and would consider banning 4130 for cages as NASCAR does.

All of this is probably WAY beyond what you need to know or maybe even can comprehend about Baja roll cages. But maybe it will help.

There are pictures in another (very old) thread about Baja bug cages in this forum where the car is a Super Beetle Baja and it has been rolled under very peculiar circumstances and on the highway. The front of the cage is severely damaged and the front of the roof collapsed quite a bit. It is touted as showing that the cage failed and thus is a waste. Yet what was not discussed is that the occupant survived a crash that he most CERTAINLY would NOT have survived if the roll cage had not been there. Yeah, a stouter cage would have been a good thing there, but what was there did it's job.
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Richard
A.R.T.S. Tech Inspection MORE/MDR
Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails built in the Mojave Desert
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...this match

Just seeing if opinions have changed in the last 15 years on the Chenowth design.
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“If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.”
—Matthew 16:24–25

[Scott SD]

Ideally you want the cage to tie into the rear torsion. I have never inspected the Empi kit, but it looks like it just bolts to the floor pan, which is thin sheet metal. A true cage needs to triangulate the forces correctly while reinforcing the suspension so it doesn’t bend when you land. It depends what you really want to accomplish. First thing I did was to cage my car. Everything else can be upgraded later.

[Mal evolent]

that kit is a copy of a Chenowth design. one thing worth knowing: it is designed for use with a 3" body lift. this has caused much rage and frustration for those who did not know.

some pictures here answer the age old question of how you weld it together inside the car: drill a hole through the floor, forward of where it will end up. drop the main hoop through the floor. weld

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=379110
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73 Beetle Baja, Ghia front brakes, Type 3 rear brakes, 2220 ( 94 X 80 ), Weber Progressive, Bosch SVDA, '97 Mustang seats

Baja Bugs for Volkswagen Virgins: Index

[Double-Double]

[Matt Wilson]

Brian, those EMPI cages are 'show cages' and would probably provide some basic safety - but remember a cage is only one component of a safety system, they are intended to be used with harnesses, suspension seats and helmets. You see cars all the time with cages, but the person driving it has no other safety equipment. Dumb. For daily use, they make the vehicle difficult to get in and out of, and have plenty of hard spots to bang your knees and arms on.

The rear section of these cages help to mount the rear shocks as well.

If you still want a cage, you could do something like this too... https://ronlummusracing.com/product/cage-kit/
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1972 Standard Beetle
1969 Baja Beetle

[Double-Double]

[dustymojave]

[Mal evolent]

[dustymojave]

About 40 years ago I did some work for attorneys representing an auto manufacturer on a case involving the company being sued by the insurance company "on behalf of the owner of the vehicle" because the insurance company was trying to skate out from under the costs of paying off injuries and damages from an accident!!! The pickup truck involved had been converted from 2 wheel drive to 4 wheel drive. It was a mini truck and 4x4 versions were not being made by the company at the time.

The 2 guys in the truck were northbound on I5 in northern California when it was a 2-lane road. Had picked up a hitchhiker who was 6' 2" who sat in between the bucket seats, obviously with no belts. A car pulled out of a dirt side road between windbreak trees without stopping to check for traffic. The driver of the pickup swerved to avoid hitting the car and rolled the truck at 65 mph. Something the truck hit when upside down tore the roof panel off and the hitchhiker was thrown out. The roof structure did not collapse down on them. Roll cage was not really needed. The hitchhiker wandered away from the accident and was found a couple of years later wandering the streets in Oakland mentally incompetent from his head injuries. The original riders were not injured.

Part of what I did was work with an accident re-construction outfit in LA to try to re-create tearing that roof panel off. Wasted a few pickup trucks trying to do that with no success. That roof was actually much stouter than any full size truck roof.

After I did a lot of work on the project and the car company had spent about $1 million preparing for court defense against the suit, the auto company lawyers settled out of court for $11 million. The tire company only had to pay about $1.5 million due to the bead of one of the tires popping off the rim in flipping sideways.

The whole lawsuit, like the one Mal referred to was very much like a manufacturer of pants getting sued for somebody tripping on his pants when the fly and waist were not fastened and no belt. That was the problem in the Baja Bug flipping suit. The fool had a cage, but wasn't wearing a belt. I very strongly feel that people should NOT have the right to sue when they are injured or killed due to their own stupidity.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.