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photoghog
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2009
Posts: 105
Location: Bella Vista Arkansas
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 Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:56 am Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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| P24p1 wrote: |
Alright, so I have 3 options for my carb setup on my 1700cc '73 Bus and another opportunity to get varying opinions on carburetors! I realize there are plenty of opinions on the internet on all of these but I seriously can't find anything consistent so maybe someone here can help me.
I have:
The original Dual Solex carbs, probably need a rebuild and I'm missing the intake manifold, but I have all the air cleaner stuff. On a side note, what is up with air cleaners? I don't understand why VWs came with these giant aircleaners and then people replace them with small oval chrome tin cans? Are the small air cleaners that come with carb kits better? I have a 73 and according to the Bentley manual, it has something called an Afterburning System that reduces backfires on deceleration, but does this work on aftermarket carbs? Do all the tubes from the original setup match up to the other two options?
My second option is a Weber 32 36 DFAV single carb. Now my confusion with this one is I've heard these can be both great and horrible. A is for aqua from what I understand, so it's a no-no with aircooled supposedly? Also, PO reported troubles going up hills with this carb installed. Could be a poorly installed throttle linkage since I find I can't open the carb all the way by just pulling on it with my finger, so maybe with that fixed it'll be great?
My third option is a brand spankin' new Empi Dual 40HMPX kit that came with the bus, has all the bells and whistle for installation and looks pretty sick. However, of course I've heard all about Empi, so I'm kinda scared of this option but if it is actually a good option I'll roll with it
I'm looking for the option that will give me the best reliability and mileage. I don't care about power, I mean it's a breadloaf, right? I love to tinker so I'm not going to stray away from dual carbs just because they're a bit harder to setup. I have the tool to sync them up too, came with the empi kit.
Thanks for any and all advice! |
I've had 3 sets of the EMPI HPMX Dual 40's. One set on a transporter, one on my ghia (still have), and one set on my westy (before subie swapping). I've experienced zero problems with these carbs. From my experience, they are well built and adjust well. I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger on these.
_________________
1977 westy "Gus", subie swapped with ej22
Insta @get_on_the_gus_bus |
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P24p1
Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2020
Posts: 363
Location: Canada, Quebec
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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| airschooled wrote: |
tldr;
Take a few ECUs, pick the one that runs best, and give the rest back?
Robbie |
No worries! I won't be dealing with the guy who wants to trade since this older gentleman I know has so many parts he's willing to give. If I knew what I was looking for I could find some things for people in need, but alas he hasn't kept it organized so that probably won't happen
I think I understand then and I think the best solution is maybe to bring my bus to him once I get it running and figure it out there, or not, I'm not sure  I've been impossibly busy lately finishing up my engine and getting ready to put it in the bus to really have put any more thought into this FI conversion project. Nonetheless, thanks for the info! I'll keep it in mind and I'll come back to it once I know the engine is running without the FI
On a side note, you mentioned the '73 has one year only bits? Like what? I was planning on getting rid of the whole interior, I doubt something somewhat special will make me change my mind about that, but it'd be cool to know in any case |
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P24p1
Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2020
Posts: 363
Location: Canada, Quebec
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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| photoghog wrote: |
| I've had 3 sets of the EMPI HPMX Dual 40's. One set on a transporter, one on my ghia (still have), and one set on my westy (before subie swapping). I've experienced zero problems with these carbs. From my experience, they are well built and adjust well. I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger on these. |
What kind of gas mileage did you get on your transporter with them? |
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P24p1
Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2020
Posts: 363
Location: Canada, Quebec
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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| KentABQ wrote: |
I switched from dual Kadrons to FI a couple years ago.
But I didn't have an option, as it was required in order to register it in Calif |
Hello again!
Quick question: what kind of fuel mileage did you get with your Kadrons? And how did that change with FI? |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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If you are looking for better than 18mpg with a 1700 Type 4 in a bus, go ahead and Subaru swap it.
Sorry I didn't see your reply weeks ago; the '73 upholstery and wood grain laminate are both OYO Westy bits. '73 owners appreciate sharing of the wealth. 
No more injection? Pity, as it really does drive the best. If you're not injecting, please go pick up those parts your contact has, and let me know how much they want for a complete system!
Robbie
PS- I think Kent's Kadrons got about 3 gallons per mile… 
_________________
Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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P24p1
Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2020
Posts: 363
Location: Canada, Quebec
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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| airschooled wrote: |
If you are looking for better than 18mpg with a 1700 Type 4 in a bus, go ahead and Subaru swap it.
Sorry I didn't see your reply weeks ago; the '73 upholstery and wood grain laminate are both OYO Westy bits. '73 owners appreciate sharing of the wealth.
No more injection? Pity, as it really does drive the best. If you're not injecting, please go pick up those parts your contact has, and let me know how much they want for a complete system!
Robbie
PS- I think Kent's Kadrons got about 3 gallons per mile… |
Aww shucks, only 18? I could've sworn I saw people quote 20mpg with good carbs or even almost 25mpg with FI Oh well, we shall see
Darn, of course then the upholstery (among many other things) was thrown out by PO, seats as well, yes the whole thing, and replaced with the mustard yellow vinyl from the earlier models.
I haven't given up on FI just yet! However, for the near future, my eyes have been opened to the wonder that is heated manifold for my single weber progressive using the built in preheater from the original system! I definitely have to try that first.
He still hasn't put all the parts together so who knows when he'll do that. I think he had a porsche FI for somewhere in the ballpark of 300 USD, like 450 ish CAD.
As for my second contact, the older gentleman with a private junkyard, if there are any really particular pieces that you or someone you know can't find online or elsewhere, I could try getting them from him. At the same time, I don't want to take advantage of his generous parting of his collection.
Yeah 5 min after making my post I gave up on Kadrons, not doing those |
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:04 am Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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| P24p1 wrote: |
| airschooled wrote: |
If you are looking for better than 18mpg with a 1700 Type 4 in a bus, go ahead and Subaru swap it.
Sorry I didn't see your reply weeks ago; the '73 upholstery and wood grain laminate are both OYO Westy bits. '73 owners appreciate sharing of the wealth.
No more injection? Pity, as it really does drive the best. If you're not injecting, please go pick up those parts your contact has, and let me know how much they want for a complete system!
Robbie
PS- I think Kent's Kadrons got about 3 gallons per mile… |
Aww shucks, only 18? I could've sworn I saw people quote 20mpg with good carbs or even almost 25mpg with FI Oh well, we shall see
Darn, of course then the upholstery (among many other things) was thrown out by PO, seats as well, yes the whole thing, and replaced with the mustard yellow vinyl from the earlier models.
I haven't given up on FI just yet! However, for the near future, my eyes have been opened to the wonder that is heated manifold for my single weber progressive using the built in preheater from the original system! I definitely have to try that first.
He still hasn't put all the parts together so who knows when he'll do that. I think he had a porsche FI for somewhere in the ballpark of 300 USD, like 450 ish CAD.
As for my second contact, the older gentleman with a private junkyard, if there are any really particular pieces that you or someone you know can't find online or elsewhere, I could try getting them from him. At the same time, I don't want to take advantage of his generous parting of his collection.
Yeah 5 min after making my post I gave up on Kadrons, not doing those |
With the engine at peak tune with a set of dual Webers or Dells you can get 20-22mpg in a bus on the highway. FI not much more if any. The plus with FI is the cold start drivability. But going from dual to FI = $$$$.$$
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:42 am Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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I'm a great fan of the stock L-Jetronic Bosch system for most any type 4 engine, but I lately wonder if anyone has equipped one with a more modern public domain hot rod system?
Maybe pick up a few more hp and a LOT better drivability at altitude and extreme cold temps.
Something using a hot-wire mass sensor?
A local buddy of mine had a rusty late WBX Vanagon for sale that had an Aussie system... Halltech, perhaps?
Figured he'd sell it to me and I hesitated too long.
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| orwell84 wrote: |
| From what I’ve heard the EGR raised head temperatures by reviewing hot exhaust gases but I could be wrong. Most people have deleted them because of lack of parts and the complexity of something that may have lowered emissions but didn’t do anything for performance. When I got my ‘73 in 1990, the tubes to the heads were rusted and it was not salvageable. Pay the most attention to plugging the holes in the heads properly. I used the wrong bolt thread and the bolt backed out. Had a nice flame in my engine compartment. |
egr introduces inert gasses into the combustion stream. That maintains compression but lowers combustion and head temperature. That lowers NOX which is what makes smog, and your eyes burn. The EGR is closed at idle and also near and at wide open throttle. It is only open at cruise. It has no effect on performance other than lowering combustion and head temps, reducing the chance of detonation, and reducing the amount of NOX produced. The ONLY issue for us with EGR is that the parts are NLA and very hard to find good ones. In the 1970's ALL cars on the highway licensed here in California had to be retro fitted with an EGR valve back to about 1950. The main difference between Federal and California EGR systems on out bays is the size of the hole in the EGR gasket. Then in California the exhaust passes thru a catalytic that turns the remaining NOX into N and O2. The O2 combines with the CO to make CO2. Karl (RIP) once said that at the big VW dealership he worked at, the engines that needed replacement from overheating of the pistons and detonation had one thing in common - the EGR's were all blocked off. |
Wow, thanks for that Steve!
The quote from Karl Von Salzen is like message from God's voice 10-15 years ago.
That's the exact feeling I've had, but shit maybe Karl told me that!
Now that filters are easily found, it is a no brainer to put the EGR back on.
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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Slightly off topic, but at least the right group may be watching: I thoght I might put together a 2.0 air cooled Vanagon motor and try to clone the European carb setup. I have pretty much complete set for a 1974. How much work would it be to get the thermostatic warm up air connected?
My actual plan is to buy the CB 28mm venturis and try to coax a few more hp from the 70 hp 1980 wonder motor.
the 28's represent 16% more area than the stock 26mm vents. If I could get 16% more power that would be good. Especially good for $16 cost of the vents.
Any idea on jetting changes? CB has Solex jets
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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a-marshal
Samba Member
Joined: March 21, 2009
Posts: 270
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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| P24p1 wrote: |
Aww shucks, only 18? I could've sworn I saw people quote 20mpg with good carbs or even almost 25mpg with FI Oh well, we shall see
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I was getting about 22mpg highway on my 1800 with dual carbs .. didn't realize the PO had them running so lean I was cooking my heads. I put CHT probes on the rebuild and was shocked at the temps, now it is at about 17mpg and running maybe a bit rich.
_________________
-Ob. vehicle info....
1973 Westy w/ '74 1.8 liter / PDSI (type3?) carbs / 009 distributor / pertronix |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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| a-marshal wrote: |
| P24p1 wrote: |
Aww shucks, only 18? I could've sworn I saw people quote 20mpg with good carbs or even almost 25mpg with FI Oh well, we shall see
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I was getting about 22mpg highway on my 1800 with dual carbs .. didn't realize the PO had them running so lean I was cooking my heads. I put CHT probes on the rebuild and was shocked at the temps, now it is at about 17mpg and running maybe a bit rich. |
JET NUMBERS or it didn't happen.
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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a-marshal
Samba Member
Joined: March 21, 2009
Posts: 270
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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| Alan Brase wrote: |
| a-marshal wrote: |
| P24p1 wrote: |
Aww shucks, only 18? I could've sworn I saw people quote 20mpg with good carbs or even almost 25mpg with FI Oh well, we shall see
|
I was getting about 22mpg highway on my 1800 with dual carbs .. didn't realize the PO had them running so lean I was cooking my heads. I put CHT probes on the rebuild and was shocked at the temps, now it is at about 17mpg and running maybe a bit rich. |
JET NUMBERS or it didn't happen. |
IIRC the old ones were - Idle Solenoids were 52.5, mains were 122.5 bypass jets were 140 (I think I was also sucking air around or through the throttle body) The new setup is still getting screwed around with but currently I'm using the 52.5 solenoids, 135 mains and a 125 bypass jet..
_________________
-Ob. vehicle info....
1973 Westy w/ '74 1.8 liter / PDSI (type3?) carbs / 009 distributor / pertronix |
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RustedArmor
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2020
Posts: 15
Location: ID
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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| I picked up a '68 transporter. Someone has yanked the carburetor. Can any of you fine folks give me advice on a replacement? I am not sure what "pict" numbers mean. It looks like an upright bug motor, not a pancake engine, so does that mean single barrel or double barrel? Thanks in advance for your help. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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| RustedArmor wrote: |
| I picked up a '68 transporter. Someone has yanked the carburetor. Can any of you fine folks give me advice on a replacement? I am not sure what "pict" numbers mean. It looks like an upright bug motor, not a pancake engine, so does that mean single barrel or double barrel? Thanks in advance for your help. |
Your van would have come with a Type 1 "upright" motor with single port heads and a single barrel carb. That may not be what you have today. To know what carb to use you need to know the head design (single port or dual port) and the numbers off your distributor body. Posting a picture of your engine showing the intake manifold design would be helpful. |
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RustedArmor
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2020
Posts: 15
Location: ID
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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P24p1
Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2020
Posts: 363
Location: Canada, Quebec
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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I'm no expert but I think the carb you need is a 34 pict-3, either original or replica.
Here's one from Bus Depot: https://www.busdepot.com/113129031k |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:15 am Post subject: Re: Carb Options - Need some advice! |
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Correct. Those rubber boots on the intake manifold tell you it’s a “ dual port “ manifold which uses the 34 mm Venturi carburetor, called a 34 PICT 3
Friendly warning. The 34 carb and the mechanicaladvamce only distributor on your car can be a tough combination to get to work well together.
Your car came originally with a vacuum advance distributor but that eng8ne isn’t original, and came with a dual advance dual vacuum can distributor
It will run with that combo so you can get your Bus rolling after you service tires,steering, and brakes.
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