'50 running gear value / 383 dist. wire or spring clips?

[johnshenry]

Where is the picture that "CLEARLY shows the wire clips on engine 1-0490428"?? I don't see it.
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John Henry

'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab

[sled]

I don't profess to be an expert with these early distributors, but I have two 383's. The first one is november of 1950 and it has solid clips with the non-painted embossed logo. The second is April of 1952 and has wire clips with the painted smooth logo. Both came out of LONG storage. I cant confirm the originality, but thats what they have..
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drive your split.

[splitjunkie]

[IN2VWS]

Not sure if this is the smoking gun or not......

The cover of a Bosch catalog from 05/1952. While it does not show the clips on a VW or Porsche, but it looks like they existed then.

From a 10/1952 Bosch parts catalog.

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[Oldfart]

Off a 1950 25HP from a Tempo.

[johnshenry]

[splitjunkie]

[PDX db]

My 9/52 barn find motor that has match dated distributor, generator, and D regulator has wire clips.

[johnshenry]

I think the red herring is the notion that because pictures were used in documentation that was published *at* changeover (ex.: Oct '52) and that since the pics/documents had to be published prior to that date, that they were used in production prior to that date.

In my experience in production/marketing, if a new, or significantly re-engineered product is being developed and released to production, it it is done in and "R&D" type environment, and pre-release samples/mockups are used (sometimes shown at trade shows) for document/literature development, and NOT used in production. I wonder if the Zwitter was "shown" pre-Oct '52 anywhere? Would seem it would have been, it was a major redesign and would have had features that would have bettered it's marketability against the competition. A "proto", or even photographs well in advance of its roll out in production.
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John Henry

'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab

[splitjunkie]

Show me one detail in a VW manual that was not actually used in production.

I never said that the fact that wire clips are present in the Zwitter manual, that they must have been used before. What I said is that there are no new pictures before that manual other than the recycled pictures from 1950. The absence of new pictures neither confirms or disproves that spring clips were used exclusively or that wire clips were used or not used.

We simply don't have any documentation either way so I cannot say definitively that wire clips were used before the Zwitter manual and you cannot definitively say that spring clips were the only clips used.

What we do have is a lot of examples of 383's with both styles of clips. Some are later than the zwitter manual and some are earlier.
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Chris

You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld

[johnshenry]

[Glenn]

I've worked on early 383 (no o-ring) that had both wire and solid clips. I've also worked on later 383 (with o-ring) that had both also. Could the clips of been changed in the past 60 years... sure, but i've seen too many of each for that to be valid.

At some point they stopped using the wire clips, but I don't see a definitive date.

BTW... i've restored over (70) 383 distributors so far.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Member #1009

#BlueSquare

[splitjunkie]

[johnshenry]

[Frederik]

I defend my post in this thread with that I wanted to chare a pic of the 383 parts diagram (I havnt't seen it before).

First my summary: spring clips were used before and after wire clips, that were a short trial in the early-mid 50's by Bosch (the wire clips probably were cheaper to produce but shown less reliable so they went back to spring clips?). In 1954 Bosch called the wire clip for "new style", but going by the pictures in this thread they might have showed up as early as 1952. By 1956 they had gone back to producing and using spring clips again. In late 1959 they still comented to use up old stock of wire springs. The same could possible be true (the circa 1952-55 wire clips were produced) that there still was a shit load of the older spring clips to use up.

This is from Bosch part book dated 10.54 for 383 distributor (and other VE.. distributors). The diagram shows spring clips, but the parts list also has and coments the wire clips as the "New style of clip" (arrow). Making the spring clips an older version (by then..).

The dagram picture of the VE.. distributor with wire clips is probably a older reused drawing as other distributors in this 1954 parts list only shows the wire clips. As for the VJU4.. distributors.

This is from the Bosch parts list dated 7.56 again showing VJU4.. distributors. Now showing spring clips again with the comment (arrows) "Replaces wire spring, ZBF 75 Z 4 fasteners must also be changed"

This is a newer Bosch parts list from 6.59 for VJ4BR.. 2,3,8 and 25. Wire clips is showing with the comment of "former construction" and "use up
parts in stock"

[James Davies]

FWIW, here's a type 527 Porsche motor, photographed in early-to-mid-1952, featuring a Bosch 383 with wire clips. The car is a split-window cabriolet, which puts it May 1952 production or earlier. The photo is published in Mechanix Illustrated, July 1952, which implies the photo was taken a month or two earlier.

And here is a factory Porsche 356 SL motor on the starting grid at Le Mans, June 1952. Again wire clips.

So wire-clip 383s were around in mid-1952 and certainly used on Porsche motors, which shared so many parts (and parts suppliers) with VW. I don't know what this means for VWs from 1952, but it's good period evidence that Bosch had already started using wire clips on the 383 by mid-1952.

[VWNate]

Wow ~ so much info here and THANK YOU for all the great clear pictures and catalog pages .

I have a nasty old 1954 36HP engine sitting outside that has the wire clips and I too think they just look nicer and keep thinking I'll put them on the old cast iron 019 dizzy on my '59 to make me smile when I check the oil and fan belt tension .

Yes, the details are nifty but damn guys ~ as long as you're driving the damn thing instead of looking at it who cares ? .

If you have a vintage motor vehicle and don't ever drive it you're not a "Serious Collector" anyway .
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-Nate

One last Beetle : 1959 #113 DeLuxe survivor ~ 36HP & full synchro tranny, 6 volts etc.