Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Temp Sensor II article (2020 update)
Page: Previous  1, 2
Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
metahacker
Samba Member


Joined: May 26, 2010
Posts: 154
Location: San Diego CALIFORNIA
metahacker is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Temp Sensor II article (2020 update) Reply with quote

[quote="ratwell"]
raygreenwood wrote:

I dug out the 914 Tech Specs (Porsche equivalent of Without Guesswork).

Look at the last row in the TSII column. When is says "Resistor omitted", is this the same 270ohm ballast resistor your mention above above? Also which vehicles was this factory installed in, if any?


the 73 is a bastard 914 year where the engineers tweaked the existing system to run right with the 2.0 before it was updated in 74. they used the 1.7L ECU to run it. it should have had a new Jetronic daughterboard with its own unique programming, which is where the density mapping for the engine is handled... e.g. the fuel map that cross references the AFM readings vs RPM and fires the injectors. Instead they hacked it. they put bigger injectors and futzed with the resistance of the temp sensor and modified the MPS for full load enrichment.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Instagram Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 17910
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Temp Sensor II article (2020 update) Reply with quote

[quote="metahacker"]
ratwell wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:

I dug out the 914 Tech Specs (Porsche equivalent of Without Guesswork).

Look at the last row in the TSII column. When is says "Resistor omitted", is this the same 270ohm ballast resistor your mention above above? Also which vehicles was this factory installed in, if any?


the 73 is a bastard 914 year where the engineers tweaked the existing system to run right with the 2.0 before it was updated in 74. they used the 1.7L ECU to run it. it should have had a new Jetronic daughterboard with its own unique programming, which is where the density mapping for the engine is handled... e.g. the fuel map that cross references the AFM readings vs RPM and fires the injectors. Instead they hacked it. they put bigger injectors and futzed with the resistance of the temp sensor and modified the MPS for full load enrichment.



Yes.....all of that....and add to this..... the fact that most 914 guys do not realize that the sought after...super expensive "039 906 051"...Porsche part numbered MPS....is nothing but the 022 906 051 E-series from the VW 412 and the 1.7L 914 from 1971 (and other years in type 4) .....but...the spacer ring against the copper diaphragm on the inside....is simply flipped to the other side...to give very slightly more "throw" or off the line and at shift points....full load impulse for the 2.0L. Besides that and a slightly different adjustment of the main load adjustment screw (which is tuning any owner needs to do anyway)......its the exact same MPS.

These kind of bastardized tweaks were not just done on the 914....we find them all through the type 4 engined D-jet series of VW and Porsche. I am not sure if they had any of the same issues on Mercedes, BMW, Renault or Volvo as well.

The one thing the factories never had while any of the D-jet was in production...is an actual book of "TUNING".....what to tweak, adjust or swap for running correction for fuels, climate, wear or altitude.....to correct engine behavior and performance. It seemed they were learning it as they went at the dealers....and only a little bit was getting "recorded" as tech bulletins.

I actually have a factory training cert....for D-jet, L-jet, CIS, CIS-E and digifant...I picked up at several classes in Atlanta back in the early 90's.

Virtually none of the D-jet information they taught....was useful outside of factory fresh and unmodified engines. I have already been driving and working on D-jet cars for about 15 years ...my daily drivers were D-jet from day 1.....and I already new tweaks and corrections that the factory had no literature for.

That being said...a lot of the Porsche guys that were working on track cars back then....call it resto-custom....already knew much of this as well.

Its great to say....in "GENERAL"....use this set of injectors with that ECU with this color code MpS...and it gets you close....but if you engine has 50k miles and you live at 2500 feet and deal with 100* weather.....that wont cut it. Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
airschooled Premium Member
Air-Schooled


Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 11131
Location: wherever you are, USA
airschooled is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Temp Sensor II article (2020 update) Reply with quote

airschooled wrote:
…Üro brand; the EMPI of the Porsche world. I’ve installed three and they’re still on the road.


Make that two. One failed tonight at 55 miles. Evil or Very Mad
Robbie
_________________
Now offering 1-on-1 video tech help!
www.airschooled.com
Knowledge. Confidence. Reliability.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
KentABQ Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: September 11, 2016
Posts: 2146
Location: Albuquerque NM
KentABQ is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:07 am    Post subject: Re: Temp Sensor II article (2020 update) Reply with quote

You're doing better than I am, Robbie.
I have a container with about 6 or 8 crapped out TS2's.
And that drove me to installing this...

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...ght=sensor

...which works great in my rig.
_________________
-Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"

"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!"
---WildIdea

Bus ownership via emoticons:
Very Happy Shocked Mad Sad Embarassed d'oh! Pray Brick wall Pray Dancing Dancing Dancing ---williamM
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ratwell
Samba Member


Joined: April 26, 2003
Posts: 8688
Location: Victoria, BC
ratwell is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Temp Sensor II article (2020 update) Reply with quote


Link


Some of these real time air-fuel ratios (AFR) are below the typical "maximum power" portion of the AFR curve so I'm not sure if this is intentional or simply showing the range of values that can be acheived.
_________________
'78 Westfalia CDN
'76 Doublecab
Read the Baywindow FAQ
Put your trust in the law offices of Bentley, Muir, Haynes, and Wilson.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SGKent Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 34792
Location: Retired so can be anywhere now
SGKent is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Temp Sensor II article (2020 update) Reply with quote

Reading about the failures on the new TSII re-pops, I went thru my parts stash to find a spare genuine new Bosch TSII that is now listed. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2428390
_________________
Ted Williams has always been my hero since the very first time my dad took me down to their dugout after a game. They flew together in WWII. Ted liked to fish. Maybe as I get older it's time to do some fishing too. Smile Have a great day with your bus!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
airschooled Premium Member
Air-Schooled


Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 11131
Location: wherever you are, USA
airschooled is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Temp Sensor II article (2020 update) Reply with quote

ratwell wrote:
Would anyone like to mail me a broken one I can examine?


Would you (or anyone else?) like a defective Üro brand sensor? I'm going to chuck it otherwise, unless someone wants to cut it open.

Robbie
_________________
Now offering 1-on-1 video tech help!
www.airschooled.com
Knowledge. Confidence. Reliability.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ratwell
Samba Member


Joined: April 26, 2003
Posts: 8688
Location: Victoria, BC
ratwell is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Temp Sensor II article (2020 update) Reply with quote

airschooled wrote:
ratwell wrote:
Would anyone like to mail me a broken one I can examine?


Would you (or anyone else?) like a defective Üro brand sensor? I'm going to chuck it otherwise, unless someone wants to cut it open.

Robbie

Please pm me.
_________________
'78 Westfalia CDN
'76 Doublecab
Read the Baywindow FAQ
Put your trust in the law offices of Bentley, Muir, Haynes, and Wilson.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
airschooled Premium Member
Air-Schooled


Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 11131
Location: wherever you are, USA
airschooled is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Temp Sensor II article (2020 update) Reply with quote

A question…

I was tuning a 2.0L L-Jet Vanagon this week, and found it odd that the cold resistance was only 1300 ohms on TS2. This goes along with the 041A part that Ray mentioned…

022 906 041A (0 280 130 017) = 1300 ohms @ 68* F

I initially suspected it was a California emissions item, allowing less fuel to screw with the cat as the engine heated up. Does warm-up enrichment even bother a healthy cat?

Robbie
_________________
Now offering 1-on-1 video tech help!
www.airschooled.com
Knowledge. Confidence. Reliability.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ratwell
Samba Member


Joined: April 26, 2003
Posts: 8688
Location: Victoria, BC
ratwell is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Temp Sensor II article (2020 update) Reply with quote

I would think that the closed loop lambda system (narrow band oxygen sensor) would be designed around keeping the mixture lean and ensuring that the CAT is operating in the optimal range.

It could also be that the range of valves starting at 1300 ohms is necessary for compatibility with the closed loop logic during the warm-up cycle.

Which Vanagon model is this?
_________________
'78 Westfalia CDN
'76 Doublecab
Read the Baywindow FAQ
Put your trust in the law offices of Bentley, Muir, Haynes, and Wilson.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
airschooled Premium Member
Air-Schooled


Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 11131
Location: wherever you are, USA
airschooled is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Temp Sensor II article (2020 update) Reply with quote

‘82 California emissions. Totally stock, going in for smog this week.
_________________
Now offering 1-on-1 video tech help!
www.airschooled.com
Knowledge. Confidence. Reliability.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ratwell
Samba Member


Joined: April 26, 2003
Posts: 8688
Location: Victoria, BC
ratwell is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Temp Sensor II article (2020 update) Reply with quote

I checked my 80-85 Vanagon Fiche from Jan 1992 and there is only one TS2 listed: 022 906 041A
_________________
'78 Westfalia CDN
'76 Doublecab
Read the Baywindow FAQ
Put your trust in the law offices of Bentley, Muir, Haynes, and Wilson.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
airkooledchris
Samba Member


Joined: January 25, 2005
Posts: 2632
Location: Where the pacific ocean meets the redwood forest
airkooledchris is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:53 am    Post subject: Re: Temp Sensor II article (2020 update) Reply with quote

ratwell wrote:

Link


Some of these real time air-fuel ratios (AFR) are below the typical "maximum power" portion of the AFR curve so I'm not sure if this is intentional or simply showing the range of values that can be acheived.


Use this to see the range of values that you can sweep between (depending on your AFM's starting point), not as an example of what you would want to set yours at. This particular engine has always ran best with AFR's that are way too rich. I didn't build it so I can't say how it was setup, I just give it what it asks for.

The advantage in running that setup, to me, was that when I needed to climb a long grade I could floor it and enrichen the mixture to keep the heads a little cooler until cresting at the top, then toggle back over to the TS2 input and continue on.

I live now where there's more flat terrain, and higher speed limits. I see the advantage now in being able to dial in a little more fuel when trying to run at 75mph for an extended period of time, so my CHT's are running in the 400's.
_________________
metahacker wrote:
... i would say that, if it's an option, (edited) not listen to any forum pessimism..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB