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King_vw61
Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2018
Posts: 1383
Location: Southern California
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 Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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The wallace is right on with my car at 2215 with me in it and 200 hp to the wheels.
I know my engine has more potential, Geers will be going thru the heads in a few weeks, Out with the Titanium and in with the stainless. New PSI springs ect.
It's funny how many people think their engine has 200 to the wheels, Because their engine builder told them what they wanted to hear or they only heard what they wanted. The look on their face is priceless.
_________________
1961 Ragtop, Autocraft 2783cc for street/strip 10k miles and counting...230.84 HP to the wheels thru Muffler 13.4 to 1 on E85
https://www.instagram.com/king_vw61/?hl=en |
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KROC
Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2006
Posts: 359
Location: Vancouver B.C.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| ivkings4 wrote: |
The wallace is right on with my car at 2215 with me in it and 200 hp to the wheels.
I know my engine has more potential, Geers will be going thru the heads in a few weeks, Out with the Titanium and in with the stainless. New PSI springs ect.
It's funny how many people think their engine has 200 to the wheels, Because their engine builder told them what they wanted to hear or they only heard what they wanted. The look on their face is priceless. |
Hi Just curious why you are removing the Ti valves? If you run the correct Alloy valve seats the Ti should be fine.
Are your heads Steel or Cro Moly seats still?
Cheers Darren. |
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King_vw61
Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2018
Posts: 1383
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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The del west valves I have are 15 years old and have an issue of stretching. Several people have told me this. Mine have stretched and continue to do so. It’s only a matter of time that one will break. If I bought new titanium it might be fine. But they are 125 each and not needed in my application.
_________________
1961 Ragtop, Autocraft 2783cc for street/strip 10k miles and counting...230.84 HP to the wheels thru Muffler 13.4 to 1 on E85
https://www.instagram.com/king_vw61/?hl=en |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
| jpaull wrote: |
Then there is the actual 200hp engine that doesnt do what the calculator says because of gearing, traction, suspension, or somebody just cant drive. This is where it would be nice to have a few more inputs, as there is truely up to 2 seconds of slower then quoted ET's from the "variables" outside of Horsepower and Weight.
It was nice for some validation though. When I enter the ET and estimated weight of my car, it spits out 166HP, which is exactly where im at. To throw a monkey wrench in the mix however, if i simply added slicks and nothing else, I could do a full drag race launch and gain 3 tenths, then if i input my new time with the same exact engine, the calculator says that i magically have 182hp, which bugs the shit out of me cause i know i dont have that lol. |
Which is exactly why a time slip is not worth more than a dyno print out. It depends even more on the car, transmission,tyres, track grip and the ability of the driver.
That said, 12,8 from a nice set up car with 166ish hp is good! no matter how you turn it.
Lately I have not been much into dragracing, but I built a 165 hp 2275 all round engine for a guy, something like 8 years ago. It went into a full weight 1957 beetle with a slightly beefed up 4,125 transmission with stock gearing. He did a good deal of sprints (1/8 mile) and he was consistent in the mid 8,5´s on unprepped tracks and with 205/60 x 15 street tyres. Whether he could improve on his driving I don´t know. I never saw him race. But, that time is not too far off compared to yours.
Keep up the good work...... Ohh, and good luck with that other thing  |
Hey Alstrup! Thanks and great points!
One thing though, did you mean to say "Which is exactly why a time slip is not worth more than a dyno print out"? And not the other way around? Because you emphasized how much everying other then the engine matters, it would seem that a timeslip would be more important. If you did mean in that order, I can see what you mean from a tuning perspective, if you know the car can perform better based upon verified horsepower, then that would help with knowing if there is more in the car in terms of the cars performance.
To me, The Timeslip means more then the Dyno printout as that timeslip seperates all the BS. The Timslip shows what the combo of the car and owner can do, not just what the owner can brag about in regarding horsepower numbers from the engine by itself that might or might not even be correct. There are alot of talkers. If the person bragging doesnt care about drag racing, then the dyno printout would be more important for their bragging purposes only.
It took me 6 trips to the track, with gear ratio changes, wheel tire combo changes, alignment changes, ride height changes, driving changes, and in that was 5 trips to the track of NOT meeting my goal lol. I knew i could do it though with that engines horsepower, not because a calculator told me i could, but because of how the runs went, i knew there was room to gain. So you can say I worked hard between me and my car to make the whole combo work as best as i could. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| jpaull wrote: |
To me, The Timeslip means more then the Dyno printout as that timeslip seperates all the BS. The Timslip shows what the combo of the car and owner can do, not just what the owner can brag about in regarding horsepower numbers from the engine by itself that might or might not even be correct. There are alot of talkers. If the person bragging doesnt care about drag racing, then the dyno printout would be more important for their bragging purposes only.
It took me 6 trips to the track, with gear ratio changes, wheel tire combo changes, alignment changes, ride height changes, driving changes, and in that was 5 trips to the track of NOT meeting my goal lol. I knew i could do it though with that engines horsepower, not because a calculator told me i could, but because of how the runs went, i knew there was room to gain. So you can say I worked hard between me and my car to make the whole combo work as best as i could. |
I agree with the timeslip being the bottom line.
There’s a local shop with a Mustang Dyno that reads low, but actually more along the lines of what a car should run. When he first started running it, a racer with a 240SX dyno’d around 340hp. This was down from 430hp at another shop’s Dyno Jet dyno. The timeslips the car was creating lined up with the 340hp numbers. Each dyno showed improvements on tuning, but one’s numbers were greatly inflated. Granted there are lots of variables in a timeslip, but it’s definitely a confirmation of performance, be it good, or bad.
Out of these 6 trips, how many passes did you get a night? The most I ever made on a Street night was 12 in a 5 hour period. The least, and more common, 3 in a 6 hour period. This makes your improvement/accomplishment that much greater imo. Having the car able to drive on the street helps, but I know some that have taken dozens of trips to the track, over a period of years to accomplish a goal.
Knowing your car, and comparing info from other vehicles helps to determine “what’s left”, but if you don’t know, you don’t know. My friend Bill had hit a wall with a period of about 50 passes where nothing made the car faster. It wasn’t till he pitted next to a weekly racer with a 7 second rail dragster that the rail driver asked him about his fuel system supply in casual conversation that he finally went faster. I hope you still have a track to go to next year to continue forward. |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:54 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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GKeeton, 4 passes per trip to the track usually. The last trip I got 5 though.
Yes your 240z example is a good one! And 50 passes is alot! I bet he felt good after changing the fuel pump and seeing results |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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Test 'N Tune is $20 for all the passes you can get. On a busy night you can still get 6-7 passes in. A local shop near me charges $250 for 3 pulls on their chassis dyno.
The time slip DOES NOT lie. If you can't run the number it is because you don't have the HP.
jp, I keep a log book with engine tuning data and track weather conditions to help me keep up with everything. I have 5 engines and 5 transaxles for 3 cars. I also have slicks, DOT drag radials, and street tires I can switch around. I have a spreadsheet with all the different engine and transaxle combos I've run in each VW. I have my share of trophies from the track that you'll never get from a dyno.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7219
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:43 am Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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Hello.
I meant "not" for the reasons you and others also menthion. You can have the real 200 hp engine and pull say 13,5´s if the car is set up bad, wrong tires and unexperienced driver.
Another thing. On the strip it is all about WOT behaviure. The time slip tells nothing about how the engine performs under part load, tip in or cruise. In fact I have a car sitting next to the dyno right now that runs like a bat out of you know where at WOT, but has a terrible dip in power/AFR in the 2900-3400 rpm window. So far it has taken me 7 hours to figure out why and I´m not done yet. - I have most likely found the problem, so now I need to fix it and test again. If I did´nt have the car on the rolls this problem would have taken forever to figure out.
Also, if you go to the track and test, you need to have some level of understanding what, when and why. Or one or two of your friends need to. When you attend a dyno the operator (hopefully) knows the what, when and why´s.
But I guess at the end of the day it is partly down to how you are used to trim and what you are after. As I have said before, to me the dyno is a very powerfull tool and very time saving in order to make an engine run well. Under normal circumstances I can come a long way in 2- maybe 3 hours. If the engine combo is bad, as in the above case (actually just the exhaust it has turned out) it can take a long time to figure out and remedy.
Last week we had a 246 Dino in that acted weired after a rebuild. Turned out the cams were set up with the wrong ILC. - How would you figure that out on the track(?)
In your case, where you have the engine dyno and could trim it before you left for the track and know what and where the engine makes power, it is MUCH easier to go to the track and dial the car in to get good numbers. But it still needs a good driver, which you seem to be 
Drag- and bracketracing is a sport just as well as offroading, rally, endurance and circuit racing. Over here we have relatively more rally and endurance races than dragracing compared to the States. A couple of years ago a new drag strip opened in Malmö Sweden, which has improved the conditions for dragracers a good deal. But it is still about a 4 hour drive, 5 hours with a trailer to get there (From around here)
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993
Last edited by Alstrup on Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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GARRICK.CLARK
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2012
Posts: 1267
Location: Lancashire UK
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:04 am Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| Hey Jp what's the fuel ratio with WOT at the end of the track. Running out of fuel at the end will show it go super lean on the gauge. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:07 am Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| jpaull wrote: |
| GKeeton, 4 passes per trip to the track usually. The last trip I got 5 though. |
So all of the changes, and that much progress in less than 30 passes.... Few realize how impressive that is... Where’s the mullet headed emoji banging his head with the devil horns raised?
| vwracerdave wrote: |
| Test 'N Tune is $20 for all the passes you can get. On a busy night you can still get 6-7 passes in. |
I wanna go to your track...
The time I got a lot of passes was a slow Street weeknight with 50 cars. The two closest tracks send a pair of cars around every 40-60 seconds. So when the average regular crowd of 150 cars show up, it takes 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours to run a round. One of the nicer tracks had an excellent efficient starter that would run a pair every 20 seconds. It was one of the busiest tracks, but you could at least make a few good passes in an outing. That starter unfortunately has since retired.
I somewhat see Alstrup’s point about the dyno sheet giving info about the entire range of rpm, and how that would give more info on how the vehicle would drive, but we’re not necessarily talking about that. 1/4 mile race engines are built specifically to perform the best at wide open throttle, in the upper rpm ranges. Most I know would run terrible as a street engine. Vise versa, most smooth running street engines that run well through the bottom 60% of their rpm range aren’t going to be screaming race engines that create a trophy time slip. In the end, they are all tools. Knowing how to interpret the info can usually get you closer to a goal quicker. |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:44 am Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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You can't pop a wheelie on the dyno or get the tasty track nacho's. Last time I got a free T-shirt for just showing up. (they were giving away all the unsold stuff from past events). Nothing gets you more excited then beating a $130,000 Corvette with your little 120 HP Dunebuggy. I can run 14.0s and will always get a few people stop by my pit and say how cool the Buggy is. When I roll into the water box I see several people with their phones taking pics/video.
G. My local track has a lane for MC & Jr's, 5 lanes for street tires and 3 lanes for slicks/DOT drag radials. I can drive around 50 street tire guys in the lanes and us real racers with slicks/DOT radials have a much shorter line. They also let MC run with cars so that keeps things going. Every hour they run Jr. Street & Jr. Dragsters, then spray the track and bring out the big guys.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
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KROC
Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2006
Posts: 359
Location: Vancouver B.C.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:13 am Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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Track Nacho’s...
Is that pump cheeze really Cheeze.... or some Orange goopy substance made out of used engine oil..... |
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sled
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 6179
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:15 am Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| KROC wrote: |
| made out of used engine oil..... |
and track prep compound.
and old race fuel.
_________________
drive your split. |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:14 am Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
Hello.
I meant "not" for the reasons you and others also menthion. You can have the real 200 hp engine and pull say 13,5´s if the car is set up bad, wrong tires and unexperienced driver.
Another thing. On the strip it is all about WOT behaviure. The time slip tells nothing about how the engine performs under part load, tip in or cruise. In fact I have a car sitting next to the dyno right now that runs like a bat out of you know where at WOT, but has a terrible dip in power/AFR in the 2900-3400 rpm window. So far it has taken me 7 hours to figure out why and I´m not done yet. - I have most likely found the problem, so now I need to fix it and test again. If I did´nt have the car on the rolls this problem would have taken forever to figure out.
Also, if you go to the track and test, you need to have some level of understanding what, when and why. Or one or two of your friends need to. When you attend a dyno the operator (hopefully) knows the what, when and why´s.
But I guess at the end of the day it is partly down to how you are used to trim and what you are after. As I have said before, to me the dyno is a very powerfull tool and very time saving in order to make an engine run well. Under normal circumstances I can come a long way in 2- maybe 3 hours. If the engine combo is bad, as in the above case (actually just the exhaust it has turned out) it can take a long time to figure out and remedy.
Last week we had a 246 Dino in that acted weired after a rebuild. Turned out the cams were set up with the wrong ILC. - How would you figure that out on the track(?)
In your case, where you have the engine dyno and could trim it before you left for the track and know what and where the engine makes power, it is MUCH easier to go to the track and dial the car in to get good numbers. But it still needs a good driver, which you seem to be
Drag- and bracketracing is a sport just as well as offroading, rally, endurance and circuit racing. Over here we have relatively more rally and endurance races than dragracing compared to the States. A couple of years ago a new drag strip opened in Malmö Sweden, which has improved the conditions for dragracers a good deal. But it is still about a 4 hour drive, 5 hours with a trailer to get there (From around here) |
When I compare Dyno numbers to timeslips in the VW world, the Dyno number is rarely the "experience" that your refering to. Some are "quoted" HP estimates from someone who sold them the engine. Some are a "one-shot" dyno pull with who knows what accuracy. Some better ones might be a few pulls with some adjustments.
What your refering to, that you provide, is totally different and rare to find for many. Your a rare Gem in the industry, someone that will run a vintage air cooled vw over and over as you diagnose, tune, diagnose, tune, improve, etc.
Lets face it, we are working with antique cars that are liabilities in the eyes of most business owners, and so few of them around that its not a business anymore especially for Chassis dyno's with knowledgeable operators that have the capability to dial in a antique hot rod vw. I hope that your customers know what they have and pay you forward well. This kind of Dyno number, one that you arrive at with your knowledge and assistance, is money in the bank for a guy looking for the best time slip after words.
Tony Klink has his Subaru business not far from me, and he has a nice chassis dyno setup, and the only person in Northen California that i know of that has some good vw knowledge AND a chassis dyno. I asked if I could get my car on there and pay him for any assistance that he could give. He was honestly too busy and gave no eta when he could fit it in. I would be happy to pay $500 even for 1 hour of having a knowledgeable guy like him or you giving pointers on the rollers. When your talking about that kind of Dyno number (really were not talking about just a number, thats a Process), I would trade my fastest current timeslip for anyday, as i knew that it would pay off with more potential for a better timeslip right after. |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:24 am Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
Test 'N Tune is $20 for all the passes you can get. On a busy night you can still get 6-7 passes in. A local shop near me charges $250 for 3 pulls on their chassis dyno.
The time slip DOES NOT lie. If you can't run the number it is because you don't have the HP.
jp, I keep a log book with engine tuning data and track weather conditions to help me keep up with everything. I have 5 engines and 5 transaxles for 3 cars. I also have slicks, DOT drag radials, and street tires I can switch around. I have a spreadsheet with all the different engine and transaxle combos I've run in each VW. I have my share of trophies from the track that you'll never get from a dyno. |
I am thinking the same as Gkeeton, I wanna go to your track lol. Thats awesome! You have made a nice "big picture" example for those that dont know what drag racing can be about. And your not running 10s where its crazy expensive to keep up. The spreadsheet keeping track is fun too i bet!
Our Wednesday night drags are $20 to race on a un-prepped track and we get 4 runs if we are lucky. Its nicer racing during the evening when its summer.
Other parts of the year Test and tune is great. It cost $50 but the track is prepped and we can get 5-8 runs. During fall/winter racing during the day with 55-65 degree temps its perfect. |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:39 am Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| GARRICK.CLARK wrote: |
| Hey Jp what's the fuel ratio with WOT at the end of the track. Running out of fuel at the end will show it go super lean on the gauge. |
Hey there, Its not going lean on the top end because of fuel supply to the carbs but it is leaner then I want 4k and above cause its at 13.8-14. And that is better then it used to be lol. I brought the air jets down to 1.7. The mains are 170(F2's so the mains do run smaller). If i go to 180 main it only fattens up the mid range under 4k and does nothing for the 4k+.
Not too long ago i went from the little clicker pump and stock line to a carter and 5/16 line so supply to carbs is good:
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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Below is a copy of my log book for those interested in keeping track of what you do at the track. The black & white copy is a worksheet I use at the track to record all my runs. The color copy is from a bracket race I won and after I entered all the data into the computer.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
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tucson vw
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2010
Posts: 10
Location: tucson ,arizona
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| I was wondering if you changed your vent on your fuel tank , you didn’t mention if it was still stock vent . Since you added the 5/16 line the vent should be the same or bigger . It might help out the top end lean issue . |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| David, Thanks for the ideas! Im sure more then just I are taking notes. That also gives me a idea to log all my piles of timeslips, and make everything sortable by ET, reaction time, etc. |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| tucson vw wrote: |
| I was wondering if you changed your vent on your fuel tank , you didn’t mention if it was still stock vent . Since you added the 5/16 line the vent should be the same or bigger . It might help out the top end lean issue . |
Thanks for the suggestion! I have a 60, so there is not a vent line. I think the cap itself is the only vent. I just had the tank out and installed a new screen to make sure all is flowing correctly. I really think i have a carb issue. I think there is a internal leak or somehow all the fuel is not making it down into the engine as it should. |
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