Shock Conversation for a 74 Super German Retro Looker......

[RailBoy]

Hello all.. Hope the Holiday go nice for everyone...

Ok, so let me say this. In spring, I am considering doing some work to my 74 Super Beetle that has a Topline Lowering Kit on it.

So, been looking at shocks, and mind you this is a street car, that see's chatter bumps on occasion, possible gravel roads at some point, but mostly beat up back roads in the mountains.

On the track side, there is a nice Highway, but that which we know is "Flat" like a road course track..

Ok, so there are these:

-Sacks, oil based
-Excell G's, entry level gas
-Koni Red, all I know of them
-Bilstein, all I know of them
Maybe some others, like KYB, with only shock there that is a performance shock is the Excell G's (Post GR-2").

Thing is I went through the threads last night with Koni Red as a search, nothing...

So, I do back mountainous stitched back and chatter bumped roads on occasion, but also some flat...

What do people out there know of these shocks above plus others I may have missed, for a 74 Super German Looker..

Escell G's are nice, but I do consider them "Entry Level". So were do Koni Reds that people I have heard fit in? Just behind them on a "Street Plain"?

Something to think of when looking into this I have learned with "Packing Up" means, and I am not looking for that, do to, "off the mountain I go", lol.. RB
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[quote="smitty24"]"HELP, I ported my own heads and now have fire coming out my ass" .[/quote]

[fuguboy]

I got the Koni reds and they are Adjustable rebound only. I had takata oil shocks before and used to bottom out on the snubber. I think they were dead because when I put them down on the side the oil leaked out. I hope this helps but I’m comparing bad to new shocks. I am old school and buy the best I can afford,cry once.

[RailBoy]

fuguboy, what are you running for a car? But yea, like to hear about some street use?

Also, on another note but Koni Red related, which ones? lol.. I looked at a few distributors and was all puzzled do to make and model cars that refers to? RB
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[quote="smitty24"]"HELP, I ported my own heads and now have fire coming out my ass" .[/quote]

[Hatracks]

I run the excel Gs on the rear of my 73 super with an oil setup in the front (the rabbit ones that fit the topline kits) and they are fine and do not seem to stiff on chattery roads (roads are crap out here in Seattle).

I also have a 60's ford that is in the 2500 lbs range (300ish HP) and I run a specifc set of Bilstein's on that are valved for light muscle cars. On that car there was a noticeable difference when I switched to the Bilstiens in the ride and i would highly recommend them if they make ones valved for bugs.

I think i have the excel Gs that were meant for the front of my 73 still sitting new in the box (before i bought the topline kit) you are welcome to them for the shipping if they will fit a 74.
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73 Super Build

[RailBoy]

Hatracks, No need for 73 items, the bolt pattern is totally different than a 74 for the McPherson Sturt design at the lower end.

Throw them into the classifieds if you do not need them? Don't get to much shelf life on them... lol

I am wondering if bang for my buck do to what I drive which is well worth it, just go fresh Excell G's?

Both will wear out bushing wise I bet pretty quick.. RB
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[quote="smitty24"]"HELP, I ported my own heads and now have fire coming out my ass" .[/quote]

[Hatracks]

i dont know i put about 5000 miles a year on mine daily driving some rough streets and long highway miles at 70 mph and no bushing issues yet at 15k
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73 Super Build

[UK Luke 72]

Gaz dampers.
UK made to any length.
Adjustable rebound and compression
£65 each+ delivery.

https://gazcoilovers.com/vw-beetle-65-79-gaz-dampers-305-c.asp

I'm running them all round on my car and love them.
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2276 Beetle build https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=670744&highlight=2276+beetle+daily
2276 EFI Conversion https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=689172

[Alstrup]

IMHO:
Street and spirited driving: Red Koni. Some want a stiffer rear end, so they use yellow on the rear axle.
All adjustable (even from the outside on the front ones) Spax. They are 50/50 on the rebound, so not quite as comfortable down a rough road as Koni, but still a nice solution.
Bilstein. Too stiff for a street car. Good for tracks.
Don´t know Excell´s.
Sachs is merely a slightly hopped up (and good quality) stock absorber.

For a fast street car (German style) it is just as important to get the sway bars right. 3/4" in the front and 16 mm on the rear axle does wonders. This is my personal favourite.
If you really want to take corners in a hurry you can go 23 mm front and maybe 3/4" rear.

I have been around the block with first my own, then my sister´s, then varius customer vehichles. Somehow we always go back to Koni´s on street cars. It is the absorber that suits my/our type of varius driving best.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993

[RailBoy]

Hello Alstrup, yea I am having a time ID'ing the proper Koni Reds to get a price on them? Guess I need to look at my VW after mkt. venders...

So, my roads are all shot. I was speaking to a friend yesterday on them on how we beat out cars up on them and there was a thought on a decent shock, but inexpensive for you will just were them out. Not the oil mind you, but being McPherson, the top bushing getting that leverage effect on it wearing then busting the seal..

See, I don't mind a nice ride, and hear Excell G's on a Super for the street do well. And Koni Reds are even the next level above that and have been a choice of Super owners for years. But wonder if that is the track attribute they allow on nice streets, vs. rough roads which the Excell G's may work well on, plus being like a $50-$60 insert. The some prices I have seen place the Koni's, if I have it right at like $125+, but as said, have not seen those sites to verify, it has been a while..

As for sway bars, yes, I run the 3/4 inch on the front and what ever Topline sells thickness on the rear, need my micrometer out one day for that one, lol..

But yea, my front end seams pretty spongy. Thing is I get to park it on Asphault or concrete so if the struts did leak, most likely they would have left a mess behind, unsure on that one, but like a wheel cycllinder, you think at the inside of the tires you would see the oil seepage..

Thanks for ya'll help, just surfed a few more VW site's for the Koni Reds, and did not see any.. RB
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[quote="smitty24"]"HELP, I ported my own heads and now have fire coming out my ass" .[/quote]

[fuguboy]

My car is a 356 replica based on a 72 pan with a swing axle transmission. The Koni reds are only on the back and I have kyb excells front. The reds made a huge difference in the ride but like I said old shocks were probably bad.

[RailBoy]

fuguboy, McPherson strut front end?

Also, is there an in-between the aludes me? RB
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[quote="smitty24"]"HELP, I ported my own heads and now have fire coming out my ass" .[/quote]

[fuguboy]

No beam front swing axle rear.

[RailBoy]

Gotcha, if I could win the lottery I like to upgrade sway bars front and rear, thicker rear torsion bar by a smidge, Koni's all the way around, and see how it goes?

My car is not that low for a German Looker, mostly things were taken into account for street use... RB
_________________
[quote="smitty24"]"HELP, I ported my own heads and now have fire coming out my ass" .[/quote]

[johnnyvw164]

You can't go wrong with either Konis or Bilsteins. Keep in mind the latter will raise your car a little...might not be too bad an idea if you feel you're bottoming out any. I had KYB Gas-Adjust once....way too stiff for my tastes. I've never like Japanese shocks, either OEM or aftermarket....although the GRs I have on my Beetle now seem halfway decent for a cheap shock

[Lingwendil]

I *think* 80-2149 are the ones you want for IRS rear? Available at many places, even Summit Racing has them. Although it looks like most ship "direct from the manufacturer"

https://www.lmperformance.com/709027/80-2149-koni-volkswagen-beetle-special-d-red-shock-rear.html

I hear good things about Bilsteins for sagging rear ends when you don't intend to swap to different rear torsions.


Speaking from past experience on my previous (long gone) 71 super, my setup was as follows-

-Topline front disc brake kit

-EMPI lowering struts with KYB GR2 (excel G I think is the same, just new name?) lowered to second notch from the top

-Topline 7/8" front bar with offset "caster fix" bushing

-Topline camber+ bushings set to 1.5~ degrees negative camber

-full urethane bushings up front

-Topline strut tower brace

-Bugpack 3/4" rear sway bar

-CB performance rubber spring plate bushings

-Koni Reds set to middle setting (three position, forget which exact model)

-CB performance HD rubber transaxle mounts (front and rear) with EMPI? mid strap

-DIY traction bar at rear of engine made from 1 1/4" square tubing, rubber puck between bar and engine, I think the puck was a bolt on tailgate protection rubber bit from Napa Auto Parts?


This setup gave a firm but not uncomfortable ride (sporty feel, not too harsh overall) and handled fantastic. You could really dive into the corners and accelerate out without losing grip so long as the tires were up to it. I initially had the konis set to the stiffest setting but found it tended to heavy snap oversteer under aggressive cornering. Lowest setting felt a bit soft and "lazy" in the turns. Middle setting was the most neutral, with a tendancy to subtle but easily predictible/controllable oversteer depending on throttle. Before running the konis I ran the KYB GR2 out back and found them to be much more harsh without helping grip. I really wanted more rear braking power on this car but never did anything about it before I sold it. I'm not joking when I say that this car handled like a slot car- it was all grip and held the curves great. Surprised some of my JDM friends for sure that were used to rotaries and other cars tuned for handling.


My current car is a three bolt strut 73 super with-

-AC industries disc brake kit up front (surprisingly a fantastic kit) with stainless braided lines

-Generic strut tower brace from CIP1 (heavy but great quality)

-Energy suspension urethane bushings all up front

-EMPI lowering struts second notch down

-Generic cartridges that were included in the struts, but I'm betting that they are just unbranded GR2/Excel G based on feel and past comparisons

-Topline Parts tapered red sport+ springs

-Rear it currently has a set of KYB excel G in place, a little harsh for the overall setup in comparison to the front IMHO.

-HD rubber transaxle mounts, and converted to pre-73 style transaxle cradle

-stock rear drums with rubber lines (planning to replace rubber lines with braided stainless)


Currently have, but have yet to install, and plan to put it all in once the engine is running well and the car is driving again-

-topline 7/8" front bar and caster fix bushing set

-EMPI rear 3/4" bar kit

-planning another DIY rear traction bar

-maybe rear discs???

I'm planning on getting the topline camber+ offset adjuster bushings soon, as it is at the limit of adjustment and you can barely get any negative camber as it sits now. Once it is all set up I think I may grab a set of red konis for the rear, as I like it a little on the softer side out back and the konis seem to be less harsh for the overall grip you get with them.


Is there a good performance shock for the lowered 71-73 type front struts? I wonder if another strut insert could be made to work in them.
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73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!

Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884

Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087!

[RailBoy]

I will admit, I am what I think is Lucky that I can drive the roads I have.. Basically I run roads that have like 30 curves/switch backs over like 8 miles.. And this is going up and down mountains, why I elected a 2180 for the job. Plus a 4.12 R&P.

So the car gets the hell beat out of it for some roads are simply worse conditions than others. So the car is I think on the nsecond notch in the front and the rear sags so it is all good, with new Excell G's on the rear.

But yea, I can't recall my mic specs on the dial. of the rear and front sway bars. And running a Store bar, disk all the way around, Porsche wheels with like a 6.5 inch front tread meeting the ground and 7 inch meeting the ground on the rear.
Car stops on a dime, and no compromise when dealing with mountians and switch backs... Passes as well.....

Other than that the car just has an Air Dam for high speed and eye candy but does actually do something, lol..

But yes, I am going to throw my mic on the sway bars and have an update. Thanks for yall's time and input. RB
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[quote="smitty24"]"HELP, I ported my own heads and now have fire coming out my ass" .[/quote]

[Lingwendil]

I wish we had some good local roads like that, closest we have are only a mile or two long, or the super sketchy mountainside pass where I rolled my 61 Baja

That reminds me I have an air dam too

I think the excel rear shocks make sense for you, rough roads might also make a kafer brace a good idea. I had one on my 61 for some extra insurance against hard hits. Thinking of one for the 73 super.
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73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!

Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884

Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087!

[RailBoy]

Lingwendel, yea I can boast that one on the curves roads that are accessible in my part of the country...

I even have a highway were besides the Air Dam's eye candy is for, but at 45mph you can tell. At 60+ moves and handles steadily... Very predictable and tight. I blame that on being lowered, wide tires a short profile... Plus the brakes just ad to it with the sway bars I have now..

See, ya'll may have me thinking I am on the right track with a Quick acting Excell G's for there quicker moving and bang for your buck of adjusting Koni Reds. But on the Reds note why I am bias. I have seen over $100 a piece on them. But I have yet to find the correct shocks for a 74 and later Super?

Anyone out there have a firm price on Front and Rear of a Super.. Browsed a few more sights and no luck.. RB
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[quote="smitty24"]"HELP, I ported my own heads and now have fire coming out my ass" .[/quote]

[GS guy]

Railboy, Summit shows Koni 86 1980 fits 74-later Super.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/kon-86-1980/applications
No personal knowledge, but adjusting these older special-D Koni shocks seems like it would be a real pain, especially the McPherson struts!
Not sure what's different between the earlier and later struts on SB, but they seem to take a different PN. Doesn't Topline offer a good shock for these cars? Good luck on your search, "good" shocks aren't cheap!
Jeff
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70's vintage Deserter GS buggy - undergoing transformation to Super GS!

[Lingwendil]

I think those will only work in a stock height strut housing though. If I'm not mistaken koni makes something that does fit the lowered struts but you need to make up a centering bushing or something? I need to dig through old threads on shoptalk forums to find the diy someone did. I forget the original application.
_________________
73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!

Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884

Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087!