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1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much?
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richardcraineum
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

those temps and afr are just default settings on that page.
but in my experience, 12 - 13 afr does seem do give more hp ( and i say " seems" because its judged by seat of the pants dyno. i have no actual dyno results). i was running as low as 10 - 11 afr at one time trying to take advantage of the cooling effect until i did some reading on how much less energy the richer mixture produced. i rejetted to get to 12 / 13 and it seemed to pic up a noticeable difference. from my reading i believe 13:1 produced the most " energy" ( pretty sure theres another word for it but i cant think of it right now). and i think thats why that page has 13:1 as its default.
besides that, our riding season ambient temps here are 90 to just over 100 so clone your " once ambient temps get to 70 - 80F .." ??? oh you poor thing to have to tune in such conditions!!! ( im just busting your balls ..). on my copper rail with the 2276 drawthrough ive hit my intakes with the IR thermo and if i remember right ive seen 130 temps, not sure what actual ait was though. i did add W/I last year and funny thing is it seemed ( seat of the pants ) to loose a little. didnt really get out much to test & tune last summer but hope to this year. im thinking it can handle a few more lbs now... heh heh

as far as intercoolers, how do yall figure they are 90% efficient? there are soooo many variables with placement , ambient temp, iat, etc. i even read in one of my turbo books that with improper placement and someone running low enough boost the intercooler can actually be an " interheater" , which i think makes complete sense. think about someone mounting an intercooler really low on a car that sits low to the ground and its 95 degree day that the asphalt is blistering ass hot and there only running 8lbs of boost. they probably be better of with no intercooler at all than that set up. i know thats an extreme example, but...
so i have intentionally just left the efficiency at 70% default setting for that reason. seems a safer bet to me.
have yall read iat pre and post intercooler?
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richardcraineum
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

stripp66 now that i think about it, im pretty sure you were acting like this in another post a while back too. so whatever dude, if all you want is to start dumpster fires im just going to ignore you & your b.s. posts. i dont remember you saying much worth reading anyhow, if i dont reply its just because i figured out how to block your posts.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

richardcraineum wrote:

have yall read iat pre and post intercooler?

I've seen 200°F going into the intercooler and 100°F coming out in my most extreme example. Melted 15lbs of ice in a 1/4 mile pass. Had nice warm water in the tank after that run. Also found that I had an intake manifold coming off, wastegate stayed clamped shut just trying to get manifold pressure up to my target. Poor turbo was working hard that pass. Temps weren't usually that high.
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buguy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

90% efficient is just typical. I haven't measured before and after myself, but i will be. That's just an average. That number typically will get lower as boost rises. And again, just typical, 12 afr will make more power than 13, and 11 more than 12. Surely there is a line somewhere and each engine is different. You can plug that into the calculator to see that. I think the one that is off the furthest off is the VE. 70% is barely good enough for N/A. In a turbo it's not unheard of to see over 100% (especially when boost rises).
These are just calculations though. With close numbers they will give you a good idea of what's going on.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

It's pretty common knowledge that the highest power AFR ratio is 14.5 to 14.7 for gasoline. That is by no coincidence also the hottest ratio where the most engine damage occurs and is to be avoided at all costs at full throttle. AFRs richer OR leaner run cooler and make less power. Most guys run on the richer side for the extra bit of cooling the raw gas provides.

Personally I tune for the mid to low 13s at full song. I know many tune for 10 or 11 under boost for the extra cooling, my feeling (though I have not tried it) is that the water/methanol injecting could take the place of that extra cooling fuel allowing you to run in the 13s instead of richer and there may be a small power gain as a result. It would be interesting to document any change.

Would your calculators show that?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

Some calculators are pretty good and may? But by all means YOU build a turbo engine and tune it to mid 13's and let me know how it goes! I will keep mine at 11-12!
You could be right though. The W/I may provide that cooling needed not to have to run richer. I run E85 so that changes things. Especially at big boost levels. My car doesn't like to be in the 13's much. It barely likes it at light throttle cruise. I like where your head is at though. You may be onto something.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
It's pretty common knowledge that the highest power AFR ratio is 14.5 to 14.7 for gasoline. That is by no coincidence also the hottest ratio where the most engine damage occurs and is to be avoided at all costs at full throttle. AFRs richer OR leaner run cooler and make less power. Most guys run on the richer side for the extra bit of cooling the raw gas provides.

Personally I tune for the mid to low 13s at full song. I know many tune for 10 or 11 under boost for the extra cooling, my feeling (though I have not tried it) is that the water/methanol injecting could take the place of that extra cooling fuel allowing you to run in the 13s instead of richer and there may be a small power gain as a result. It would be interesting to document any change.

Would your calculators show that?



Not sure where you are getting that info from but a quick search on google blows that theory right out of the water.
Any turbo engine at 14.0:1 will be spitting ring lands and piston pieces out pretty quickly.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

Thanks all. After reading that all i have decided the Holset not to use. He is too big i think now. Unfortunately i can't read Turbo-maps so i take the experiences of others. It's only my 2nd Turbo-build.

Which Draw-through Turbo is more suitable for the 1835ccm engine? Boost in the higher rpm-range (to 7000) and readily available and affordable.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:40 am    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

Clone and I (plus others) both run/ran turbos off of a WRX with great results. I didn't run quite to 7000 rpm though. Boost at 2300 rpm or so and 30 psi. It's a very very good street turbo. TD04-13t is good to 275hp i think.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:44 am    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

clonebug wrote:
oprn wrote:
It's pretty common knowledge that the highest power AFR ratio is 14.5 to 14.7 for gasoline. That is by no coincidence also the hottest ratio where the most engine damage occurs and is to be avoided at all costs at full throttle.



Not sure where you are getting that info from but a quick search on google blows that theory right out of the water.
Any turbo engine at 14.0:1 will be spitting ring lands and piston pieces out pretty quickly.

Isn't that exactly what I said?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:50 am    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

Shorty-DD wrote:
Thanks all. After reading that all i have decided the Holset not to use. He is too big i think now. Unfortunately i can't read Turbo-maps so i take the experiences of others. It's only my 2nd Turbo-build.

Which Draw-through Turbo is more suitable for the 1835ccm engine? Boost in the higher rpm-range (to 7000) and readily available and affordable.


Chinese special .63 AR t3/4 hybrid should be under $200 bones USD all day from any number of suppliers.

A word of advice. All these people who are like “draw through is completely drivable year round” also typically live in a climate like Southern California.

Your results may be quite different in Germany. You’ll probably be running some crazy rich ratios to simply get the damn thing to not fall on its face all the time making much of this discussion moot.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:06 am    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

Shorty-DD wrote:
Hi...i’m in a build of an 1835ccm draw-through Turbo (for Dragrace)

Application is in the first line of the first post.


Last edited by oprn on Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:23 am    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

I buy e-bay turbo's for under $200
look for a AR .48 and 60 trim Wink this will work for you.
Cheers,mike
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

Any issues with the quality of those turbos Madmike? And do they have a carbon seal for draw through?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
Any issues with the quality of those turbos Madmike? And do they have a carbon seal for draw through?


You don’t need a carbon seal.

You just need a properly regulated oil supply and return
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

I didn't have Chinese turbos when i was drawthrough, but i never had a carbon seal and had no issues with that.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:41 am    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

No seal, just have a -10 an or a 3/4" drain Wink , I've never had any issues with these cheap turbos ,, for the price , I've tried a few Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:54 pm    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

i was gunna ask u guys that recommended turbos about which had carbon seals too but oprn beat me to it...
im sure the seal is way more critical on a driver tha a racer. i had a little pulling tractor ( lawnmower type ) not that long ago that that i put a turbo on. did it both as drawthrough and blowthrough. the turbo did not have a carbon seal and using it as a drawthrough that thing smoked like diesel truck with the fuel pump turned up, esp when throttle plate closed or at idle.
other than burning oil i dont guess thered be a problem?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

The only time mine ever smoked is when the drain line got kinked. I think if you have a nice big drain line it "shouldn't" be a problem. Of course there are always exceptions. Mine was a driver too.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 1835ccm Holset Turbo - A/R .82 too much? Reply with quote

buguy wrote:
The only time mine ever smoked is when the drain line got kinked. I think if you have a nice big drain line it "shouldn't" be a problem. Of course there are always exceptions. Mine was a driver too.


huh, that's interesting. its probably like everything else with turbo stuff, there's so many other variables that there never seems to be one right answer. down side is when people think their way is the only way it can possibly work...

btw i sent you a pm about something you had on classifieds. check your messages!
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