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Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail....
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baarf
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:19 pm    Post subject: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

I just acquired this frame and I want to build a trail/desert rig out of it.

I am going to post pics as I go and ask lots of questions as I have learned much just reading through here

Starting with brakes as it is missing just about everything.


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baarf
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

I am going to start with the brakes. Does anyone recognize this disc brake set up?
The hub is marked with a VW (figures) and it is for the 4 lug version

The inside of the rotor is marked
AG-D6 5
5L 10
Min th
9.0 mm

Looks like the seals are out around the stub shaft (I think that is the right term) and maybe need to replace bearings while I'm at it since I have no idea how old they are. A little loose but nothing is tight here so could be good.

So if you recognize this disc brake set up I can order calipers etc and install a new system!
Front wheels are (?) spindle wheels with no brake hardware at all. Not sure if I need to put any in since this will be a light weight trail wandering machine

Thank you!
Mike (me)
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jsturtlebuggy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

Hi, welcome to the Samba.
Looking at your pics the rear hubs are from a type 3. They were used on 1966 to 1973 type 3 rear brake drums. Drums bolted on the separate hub. The rotors appear to be Porsche 914. This was a common setup used for many years. The center hubs were machined to fit inside rotors. The calipers that were used were from the front of a type 3 or Ghia.
They work from what I heard from those that use them.
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oprn
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:52 am    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

My sand rail has rear brakes only as well. We use it for trail riding too but I got myself into a bad situation with it while descending into a lake in the back country. The trail in was very steep and the rear tires were locked up trying to slow down but I was picking up speed! The only way to prevent going headlong into the lake was to put the car sideways and there was barely enough room between the trees!

I am in the market for front brakes now!!
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baarf
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

jsturtlebuggy wrote:
Hi, welcome to the Samba.
Looking at your pics the rear hubs are from a type 3. They were used on 1966 to 1973 type 3 rear brake drums. Drums bolted on the separate hub. The rotors appear to be Porsche 914. This was a common setup used for many years. The center hubs were machined to fit inside rotors. The calipers that were used were from the front of a type 3 or Ghia.
They work from what I heard from those that use them.


If you look at the picture showing from the inside, the rotor is mounted first, and the hub is outside. (I hope that makes sense) so rotor goes on first, then the hub that you mount the tire to, tire being last.
SO type 3 hubs, Porsche 914 rotors, then Ghia or type 3 calipers

Thank you!


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jsturtlebuggy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

Ok so someone did a reverse mounting of rotors to hub. That is different then what I have seen.
If it works, that is what matters. Not everyone has access to tools such as a lathe, so they use what is available.
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baarf
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

Well you learn something new every day.....

The rotors are only 9 inches. (no seriously..) so finding a replacement caliper is a problem. The Ghia calipers cannot reach or fit into the space so what ever was done before has to go......

I am going to use the Empi set for a chevy 5 lug setup. It has everything and with a bit of cut and weld I can have a fairly modern setup that actually has a parking brake. I know some folks don't think I need one but there was little price difference so what the heck....
I will post pics later after I get crazy with a cutting wheel....... Shocked Pray Anxious
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oprn
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

You will not be sorry you have a parking brake.
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

I favor a parking brake for a trail buggy too. My Hi Jumper has had a parking brake since the beginning in the 1970s.

My old pal had the T3 hub/914 rotor rear brakes on his 4 seater for years. Worked well.

Lots of guys with buggies who are accustomed to sand dunes think in terms of no front brakes. And for there it works. But for desert trails, forests, on/off pavement/ and for general use, I strongly recommend installing good front brakes. They don't need to be fancy. VW Bug Type 1 front brakes are fine. They may even need a little proportioning valve in the line from the master cylinder to balance them with the rears since a light front end buggy on dirt is likely to lock up the front brakes very quickly if the brakes are balanced like normal automotive brakes.
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baarf
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:54 am    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

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I am using the Empi kit, and I just decided to pile in and cut/weld until things fit. After cutting in I did box in the cut so I hope it's as strong as before. Everything looks good in the test fit.
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baarf
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:57 am    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

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Of course I did break off the big bolt that holds the pivot on the trailing arm. Now I just need to figure out how to get in there and get the broken piece out...
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baarf
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:01 am    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

oprn, Dusty Mojave, I agree, and I got the kit that has the parking brake option. Not much more and really, why not?

Thank you all for your input!
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jsturtlebuggy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

Ouch! Removing the rest of the pivot broken pivot bolt is not going to be easy.
The thread pitch of bolt is 14x1.5mm.
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baarf
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:06 am    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

I may have to cut a hole on the inside of the horn to get enough room to drill it

Oh I am having fun already.....
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Vanapplebomb
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

I have done it with a 90 degree air drill before. I had to cut a stubby bits even shorter though. It had a 3/8 chuck, so that was as big as I could drill. By that time I had removed enough material that after a few good knocks, I was able to back it out with a reverse spiral ez out. Donít force a reverse spiral ez out. If you crack it, your in trouble.
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baarf
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

Vanapplebomb wrote:
I have done it with a 90 degree air drill before. I had to cut a stubby bits even shorter though. It had a 3/8 chuck, so that was as big as I could drill. By that time I had removed enough material that after a few good knocks, I was able to back it out with a reverse spiral ez out. Donít force a reverse spiral ez out. If you crack it, your in trouble.



Thank you, I will start that way and try to avoid any more holes. Nice to hear someone else had the same problem and found a solution

Mike (me)
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

And when you've gone to all that effort to get the broken bolt out and gotten ready to put it together, i recommend using anti-sieze on the threads to prevent a future revisit.
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Scruffy Buggy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:15 am    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

Glad to see you have your priorities in order.

One of the FB groups I'm in had a post a while back that said he had his new to him buggy running great but it had no brakes. Mad I told him I would have made it stop BEFORE I made it go.
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oprn
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:07 am    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

dustymojave wrote:
And when you've gone to all that effort to get the broken bolt out and gotten ready to put it together, i recommend using anti-sieze on the threads to prevent a future revisit.

^^^This!^^^

There should be no dry threads anywhere. In my world they either get lube or Loctite and there has to be a good solid reason for the later. Dry threads never really tighten properly and next time out just might be what you are doing right there!
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baarf
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Another new guy resurrecting a trail rail.... Reply with quote

Well the fun continues...

I did cut a hole in the back of the horn to access the bolt. Drilled and worked with a bolt extractor, heat, PB Blaster etc and no happiness in sight.

So since I have come this far, just to make it easy on myself, does anyone know the bolt size and thread? I may as well just drill it out and re-thread the darn thing...


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