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Engine Tick
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jacobcallaghan
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:47 pm    Post subject: Engine Tick Reply with quote

Hello Samba,

Sadly my engine has developed a tick. It is driving me insane and would love some help with diagnostic.

My engine is a new 1699 Dual Port built this December by Jeff at Gemvw. I am running an electronic ignition distributor. Flamethrower I believe? The engine now has about 10k miles or so. (I drive my buss a lot).

I have checked the valves multiple times and they are in spec to .006 inches.

There is no major exults leaks other than the top stud and bolt on cylinder one is missing.

I have checked around for quite a while with an engine stethoscope and it appears loudest on the passenger side of the intake manifold right near where the boot connects the two pieces. I can hear the noise in the valve covers but its tough to say for sure if its coming from there.

I have removed the fan belt and noise was still persistent.

If I put my stethoscope to the bottom of the case I hear nothing.

I have also put it to the oil pump and no noise appears either. Same with fuel pump and distributor.

I have pulled all wires one by one and see no noticeable change in the noise.

Here are some videos of the noise. I hope this is not catastrophic haha.

Thanks in advance for the help!


Link



Link



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

from the sounds of it I would say possible broken lifter or lose cam gear. could also be a cam gear thrust bearing
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jacobcallaghan
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply.

If it was the cam would i be able to hear it in the lower of the case near the cam? Or would the case muffle the noise significantly.

I put my stethoscope near the cam and could not hear anything.

I also checked my valves and rockers. Nothings seems supper loose or strange. I do have a bit of side to side play in the rockers. Could this be causing the noise?

I am going to check for a bent pushrod. My engine builder thinks this might be the issue.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

jacobcallaghan wrote:

I am going to check for a bent pushrod. My engine builder thinks this might be the issue.


well, pushrods don't usually bend themselves so if there is one bent, I would want to know why

what rocker shafts are you using? if the stock style with the wire clips they will have some side to side, check for broken washers.

solid shaft will be shimmed to about .003-.004 (going off memory here so don't take those numbers as gospel)


https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=20


https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5787396&highlight=#5787396
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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jacobcallaghan
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

Ok so maybe found some things.

It looks like cylinder one exhaust had some scoring on the top that connects to the rocker.

Does this mean I got some lifter issues?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

Maybe oiling issue. Make sure you can blow through the pushrod or pass a wire through it.

Does the click sound seem to be once every rotation, once every 2 rotations or random?

It could be a sticky lifter, broken ring, tight wrist pin, worn small end on rod, sticky rocker, sticky valve.

Do you have good oil pressure?
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jacobcallaghan
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies. Here are some updates.

The noise seems to get louder as the engine warms up. It seems to be every rotation.

I have not done a compression test yet. But it does not seem like it has lost power. running good. Although my buddy noticed when i down shift a small puff of white smoke. Could be a sign?

I took apart the whole rocker assembly and inspected everything. Other than that slight scoring on the pushrod of cylinder 1 exhaust, i found a small gash on the rocker head of exhaust of cylinder 2.

I also ran it with the valve covers and tried to grab the rockers to see if the sound changed. Nothing seemed to change. I did feel a slight bang on the intake of cylinder 2. Maybe something there?

I do have good oil pressure... I think. Dont have a gauge. but i have never had my oil light flicker or anything. I am running straight 30 weight.

It does seem to be running a bit leaner than usual on the lower end of the rpms. I was running a 55 idle jet and it was buttery smooth at low rpms. I am now at a 60 idle jet and it has a bit off studded and bucking. Maybe a sign?

I have tested multiple times for vacuum leaks. Nothing.

I am timed to 28* max advance. Electronic ignition.

I have since fixed the missing stud in the exhaust of cylinder 1. No change

I plan to get a temporary engine and start tearing into it. Hopefully find a smoking gun.
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jacobcallaghan
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

Still ticking away.

-I have good oil pressure.
-Good even compression 130 on all cylinders
-engine ticks slightly louder when warm
-There seems to be a bit of a strange vibration when I get close to 3300 rpms.
-Engine still drive great. Although I have not been driving it.

I am about ready to send it back to the engine builder. He is willing to stand behind it but it's in California I am in Oregon. A long ways in shipping. I want to cover all my bases before I send it back.

I am thinking it is coming from the bottom end. My hose in the oil filler test makes me think its down there. The noise gets louder just by taking the oil filer cap off and its really loud when you put the hose in to listen.

The local Vw gurus in bend seem to think scored piston or wrist pin. But it does not change with pulling the plugs. If this was the problem I would see change when pulling cylinder plugs correct?

So am I right in thinking its most likely something in the cam? Whether it be cam gear or bearing. And if so....

Do you think its wise to send it back to the builder or tackle it myself with the help of a VW friend in Oregon? I have done all my own work on my vws except splitting the case. If I am being honest it scares me... but it might be a few days to a week of learning and work to do it myself and could be around 600 with shipping and a few weeks if I send it back.

Thanks for all the help!
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jacobcallaghan
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

To bring up an old thread:

The ticking is still going... or so I think. I have taken it to a few specialists and my engine builder and they all assured me itís nothing to worry about. And so far I have not seen any crazy issues except for recently. Blow by. And this leaves me with some questions.

All cylinders still have the great compression of right around 130 psi taking in account elevation. No noticeable power loss. Although itís hard to tell as I have switched the engine from my buss and is now in my single cab. Much more pep in the light single cab so might be hard to tell big loss of power compared to my camper?

After my last oil chainge I started to get a lot of oil slung about the engine bay. I thought it was my fuel pump gasket. Changed it with no fix. Thought it was my alternator gasket. But no go there either. It seems I have some blow by issues.

I am running a stock 62 air cleaner with the breather hose hooked up.

I have checked to make sure all valve covers are where they should be. I have made sure there is no clog in the breathing line.


With good compression. Can I more or less rule out rings and pistons?

Just to restate the engine is a newer build with about 15kish miles. 1641. Dual port. Single 34 pict.

Any thoughts on blow by issues? I would like to stop cleaning my engine daily.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

As far as the tick is concerned:

I had a similar issue on a 912 engine some years ago.
When the engine was first started, no tick.
Within 30 seconds or so, the tick would start.
i don't recall if it got louder as the engine warmed up.
Anyhow, it drove me crazy for a while trying to track down the cause.
Ultimately turned out to be a valve guide loose in the head
It would move with the valve just enough to cause the tick.

Something to investigate in your search for the damnable tick anyhow.

As far as blowby goes, something has changed in your engine.
Plugged flutes on the pulley? Excessive blowby from pistons?, #4 bearing drain passage plugged?
The blowby is likely caused by the pulley flutes not able to keep the oil from #4 bearing drain in the crankcase.
First thing I would do is pull the pulley off and ensure the flutes are clean.
If that doesnít work, and you donít want to tear down the engine to see if you have a broken ring or a clogged oil drain passage, is vent the valve covers .
Lastly, you can install a sand seal and related pulley.

The last two of these ďfixesĒ won't actually address the root problem, but may stem the oil tide until such time as you do a teardown to see what it causing the excessive crankcase pressure.
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jacobcallaghan
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

Thanks for all the help. I pulled the pulley and installed a stock one we will see if this helps for blow by.

As soon as I have my other bus up and ripping again I will pull this motor and finally dive head first into the tick.

So a little noise a started to notice as well, is this whirring. Any leads on this? It sounds like something is rubbing but I canít find any thing that could be the issue.

Sound is consistent with fan removed

Any ideas?

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johny__utah
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

wouldn't hurt to check your fan. the slotted opening sometimes wears out
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jacobcallaghan
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

Thanks for all the help so far.

Itís long over due but I finally pulled the heads. To my surprise nothing obvious... keep in mind I am a complete novice.

I think the tick and blow by might be related?

I decided to pull the heads after no luck fixing my engine blow by. Today I pulled my valve cover off and started it to diagnose a sound that might be a bit louder. On my driver side About a quarter of a quart sprayed out in about 20 seconds ish of running with revving. This seems excessive? My local Vw guru thought so and suspected my oil ring. My passenger side showed very little oil leakage, with cover off.

So I decided to bite the bullet and dive in. I suspected to see a damaged ring or cracked piston or scored something. But nothing, all valves and guides appear in spec. The rings look good visually. Going to check clearance tomorrow. No obvious signs of anything.

Any ideas what could be causing the crank pressure if itís not the rings? And could bad rings cause a tick?

I am going to replace the rings and re torque the heads. I hope this solves my issue. But I feel it wonít.


Again this is a brand new motor with about 17-20k miles. Driven easy never overheated.

6 Vwís at my house and none run haha. Killing it!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:15 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

jacobcallaghan wrote:
Ok so maybe found some things.

It looks like cylinder one exhaust had some scoring on the top that connects to the rocker.

Does this mean I got some lifter issues?


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Yo Jacob, I think you need to get your fingers looked at I think you might be turning into Spiderman! Laughing Laughing Laughing Sorry I know lame joke, but to your question usually ticking is normally a valve issue and I know you have checked all that out but if you have the time and enough experience I would drop the motor and save yourself the headache and break down the engine and clean check the internals that way you may find your sound and can throw together a little half rebuild check up. Since it is brand new it could of had something done incorrectly and you could be saving yourself from a bigger $ound. Think Think Think
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:50 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

I've had mystery ticks in the type 1 engine .If all appears fine usually it is a rear thrust bering slapping back and fourth in the case due to looseness in the bore or not enough thrust washers between the fly wheel and bearing . You could also check the side play on Your'e connecting rods.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

I agree i would just tear it all the way down and go thru it now. If you find something now it may save yourself big money in the long run. You mentioned your learning so now is a good time to learn. something as simple as a loose cam gear or a bearing that is just starting to go could be very costly if its running a higher rpm going down the road when it comes apart. If you tear it down you will not have much money out of pocket other than gaskets and time verses if you dont it could ruin the engine all together.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

I think it's a good thing to get to know your engine, but it sounds like this was under warranty 7 months ago when you noticed the issue? I would be concerned now that you've kept driving it, and pulled things apart, that warranty might not be valid anymore if you find out it's an expensive fix. Hopefully it's something simple in the end!
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jacobcallaghan
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

Thanks for the replyís.

Going to fully dive in and split the case. Yes it was under warranty 7 months ago. But I was assured by engine builder that the tick is normal and sounds non threatening. So we decided not to send it in. Kinda wish I did. But very happy to learn engines more. I donít see me not owning vws so I mine as well learn how to build an engine.

I have another motor I am building that is kinda not great. My buddy gave it to me and I am freshening it up. Going to build that one learn a lot and then fix this engine.

I will let you guys no if I find anything. Wish I would have seen my smoking gun by now haha! To the depths of the inner engine we go.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

6 VW's and none run, what's the issue? That's what all our yards look like. Your going to find a rod slightly out of whack when it gets broke apart.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Tick Reply with quote

So got the heads of and found some scoring on the pistons. My engine builder was kind enough to ship me some new pistons and jugs.

Thought this must be my issue with the blow by. It was not. Keep in mind this is my first top end rebuild so could have easily fucked up.

But I suspect a different issues. Before I decide to pull my motor I noticed a shit ton of oil spraying out the 3/4 side of the engine with the valve cover off. Way more than I had ever seen before. Maybe like a half quart in 20 seconds.

I rebuilt the top end and started it up today. Same tick (maybe louder). And pulled the valve cover off and sure enough a shit ton of oil and pressure.

Any ideas on what would cause this? Itís seems almost impossible that oil could get up through the pushrod tubes that fast.
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